Saved Without A Pastor??

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Why is Jesus bringing up Imperial Roman Military Law?

I think you are taking the word servant to negate any sort of authority rulership quality? As a teacher, mentor, older brother would have over siblings. Jesus is still the Father, and requests us to be as mature as the Father. But, please proceed, there are two different Greek military phrases used, and want you to tell me their differences in meanings.

No brother. I’m not. Did you notice that I referred to Jesus as the King of kings. That is part of my point. They have been trying to water down the scripture by substituting other words for “rule over”. Now you’re doing it.

Notice the words in bold above. I should make a list of words y’all think “rule over” means. Does an older brother “rule over” younger siblings. I have older brothers and neither I, nor anyone else to my knowledge has ever referred to them as ruling over me.

A mentor is a ruler? Can you see how desperate y’all are to change the wording in Hebrews 13? It only repeats “rule over” three times?

How many times is elder, pastor, guide, mentor, teacher, and I don’t know how many others been used in this thread to substitute for “rule over”? I’m afraid to guess. And how many times do they appear in Hebrews 13? They are all tied at zero. Think about it. What is odd is that the words; king, prince, judge, emperor, etc, that actually DO have a similar meaning, have not been used by y’all as a substitute for “rule over” even once. And then 1ofthechosen posts a sermon where Phil White has the pastors and elders come to the front and then has the young people kneel before them because they have “authority issues” or something. Don’t worry, he doesn’t believe in man worship, it’s not that at all. Just kneel before God (and them).

Kneeling before men was frowned on in the Bible on several occasions. You mentioned the fellow servant that John the Revelator fell down to worship, who was rebuked for doing so. Cornelius fell down to worship Peter, and Peter told him to stand up because he was only a man. Meanwhile we have a well respected pastor requesting the young people to kneel before pastors and elders.

The grape 🍇 flavored kiddie drink is flowing. I can only hope and pray there’s no cyanide in it.

Good grief!!

[Tithesmeister]

[QUOTE=Evang.Benincasa;1536749]TM, do you believe that Hebrews 13:16-17 is dealing with the Roman Jude an governing leadershipQUOTE]

No, brother.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Tithemister? Were you using this these verses in your no tithing teaching? Is it because they are being told to sacrifice to GOD by SHARING with the guys being talked about in verse 17???!!!!

That is so funny!

No, brother. This has nothing to do with tithes. You know that. And you know I know that too.

Now the word magicians 🎩 may change that. Lord knows they see tithes where there are no tithes and pastors where the Bible says rulers.

Could you post an appropriate meme for me? I can only say good grief and stuff like that because I’m technically challenged.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

The grape 🍇 flavored kiddie drink is flowing. I can only hope and pray there’s no cyanide in it.

Good grief!!

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Thank you. How bout a magician 🎩 turning an emperor into Creflo $$$$$

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

No brother. I’m not. Did you notice that I referred to Jesus as the King of kings. That is part of my point. They have been trying to water down the scripture by substituting other words for “rule over”. Now you’re doing it.

Notice the words in bold above. I should make a list of words y’all think “rule over” means. Does an older brother “rule over” younger siblings. I have older brothers and neither I, nor anyone else to my knowledge has ever referred to them as ruling over me.

A mentor is a ruler? Can you see how desperate y’all are to change the wording in Hebrews 13? It only repeats “rule over” three times?

How many times is elder, pastor, guide, mentor, teacher, and I don’t know how many others been used in this thread to substitute for “rule over”? I’m afraid to guess. And how many times do they appear in Hebrews 13? They are all tied at zero. Think about it. What is odd is that the words; king, prince, judge, emperor, etc, that actually DO have a similar meaning, have not been used by y’all as a substitute for “rule over” even once. And then 1ofthechosen posts a sermon where Phil White has the pastors and elders come to the front and then has the young people kneel before them because they have “authority issues” or something. Don’t worry, he doesn’t believe in man worship, it’s not that at all. Just kneel before God (and them).

Kneeling before men was frowned on in the Bible on several occasions. You mentioned the fellow servant that John the Revelator fell down to worship, who was rebuked for doing so. Cornelius fell down to worship Peter, and Peter told him to stand up because he was only a man. Meanwhile we have a well respected pastor requesting the young people to kneel before pastors and elders.

The grape 🍇 flavored kiddie drink is flowing. I can only hope and pray there’s no cyanide in it.

Good grief!!

We need to remember that we are called to submit ourselves one to another, however, if the one we are submitted to is a RULER OVER us, that means by definition he is not submitted to us as we are submitted to him but he is in a dominant capacity.


The call is to be equally submitted to each other NOT one group submitting to another who rules without submitting to us in return.


Maybe this doesn't make sense and if not I blame Benicasa for being my gateway into smoking too much bacon....*cough cough* the salty maple goodness....it burns so good.

[jediwill83]

I was also told by a minister/elder that submission flows upward from saints to the ministry but among ministry, submission flows horizontally.....


This perpetuates the concept of separation between clergy and laity.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

We need to remember that we are called to submit ourselves one to another, however, if the one we are submitted to is a RULER OVER us, that means by definition he is not submitted to us as we are submitted to him but he is in a dominant capacity.


The call is to be equally submitted to each other NOT one group submitting to another who rules without submitting to us in return.


Maybe this doesn't make sense and if not I blame Benicasa for being my gateway into smoking too much bacon....*cough cough* the salty maple goodness....it burns so good.

Brother, I tell the truth and I lie not. I’ve been waiting for someone to say this. If you go waaaay back, I said that I believe in submission, and that there is scripture for it. That’s been probably fifteen pages ago. Nobody has quoted this.

You win tha prize.

u rock

You win a life-time supply of extra thick sliced Sicilian maple wood smoked bacon.

Compliments of Elder Steve Epley MHG (That’s Master Hog Butcher for the uneducated) and the loquacious Evangelist Dominique Benincasa aka the Sizzling Secilian.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

No brother. I’m not. Did you notice that I referred to Jesus as the King of kings. That is part of my point. They have been trying to water down the scripture by substituting other words for “rule over”. Now you’re doing it.

Easy, easy, you didn't even touch what I asked you.

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Notice the words in bold above. I should make a list of words y’all think “rule over” means. Does an older brother “rule over” younger siblings. I have older brothers and neither I, nor anyone else to my knowledge has ever referred to them as ruling over me.

Bro, you had older brothers who were never in charge. Sorry to hear this, but guess what Pilgrim, the Bible has older brothers who were in charge of their younger siblings. Lets move on to teachers, did any of your teachers employ corporal punishment to correct you? No, OK, well, in the BIBLE, we are told spare the rod spoil the child. Train up a child in the way they should go, and they shall not depart when they are older. Jesus is a Rabbi, anyone who have studied how Rabbis were on the same level as the Greek teachers, who demanded respect. Let me offer you how Jesus dealt with stupid in Mark 16:14 EB version "Still later Jesus appeared to the eleven apostles while they were eating. He put them on full blast for their unbelief and because they were too stubborn to believe those who had seen him alive."
Jesus put them to shame, rebuked them, in other words, He blew them up! Lead by example Jesus, walk in the light as He is in the light. The Greek word ὠνείδισεν, means to upbraid, revile as in gritting your teeth at them. The word is used to define someone insulting another. Teacher, mentor, Rabboni? Seriously? we are watering down the scriptures? Water down the words? Good grief this.

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

A mentor is a ruler? Can you see how desperate y’all are to change the wording in Hebrews 13? It only repeats “rule over” three times?

Bro, you need to slow it down Hoss. "Πείθεσθε τοῖς ἡγουμένοις" what does this mean? It means to suffer those leading you, are may I say tolerate those who are leading you, be submissive so they will enjoy what they are doing, because they have to give an accounting for your souls (because Jesus, warned everyone that blindness wasn't an excuse, and you will lead everyone in the same ditch you are heading for) don't grieve them, for you will cause their work to be harder. Bro, that isn't a Roman officer or a Judean official? Was the writer of Hebrews now telling us that we need to share with government officials?

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

How many times is elder, pastor, guide, mentor, teacher, and I don’t know how many others been used in this thread to substitute for “rule over”? I’m afraid to guess. And how many times do they appear in Hebrews 13? They are all tied at zero. Think about it. What is odd is that the words; king, prince, judge, emperor, etc, that actually DO have a similar meaning, have not been used by y’all as a substitute for “rule over” even once.

Where is government official being used? Where does it say kings, Sanhedrin, princes, or Legionnaire? I don't see them either, but you are crying over a verse which has one proceeding it telling us to share with them? That sharing is an offering to God?

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

And then 1ofthechosen posts a sermon where Phil White has the pastors and elders come to the front and then has the young people kneel before them because they have “authority issues” or something. Don’t worry, he doesn’t believe in man worship, it’s not that at all. Just kneel before God (and them).

Kneeling before men was frowned on in the Bible on several occasions. You mentioned the fellow servant that John the Revelator fell down to worship, who was rebuked for doing so. Cornelius fell down to worship Peter, and Peter told him to stand up because he was only a man. Meanwhile we have a well respected pastor requesting the young people to kneel before pastors and elders.

Bro, do you have some sort of Ecclesiastical PTSD?

Can you tell me how long you been working with church youth?

Do you have teenagers of your own? How old are your children by the way?

You can PM me if you wish.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I was also told by a minister/elder that submission flows upward from saints to the ministry but among ministry, submission flows horizontally.....


This perpetuates the concept of separation between clergy and laity.

Amen to perpetuating the (false) concept.
Did the said minister/elder quote scripture for support of his statement?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

We need to remember that we are called to submit ourselves one to another, however, if the one we are submitted to is a RULER OVER us, that means by definition he is not submitted to us as we are submitted to him but he is in a dominant capacity.


The call is to be equally submitted to each other NOT one group submitting to another who rules without submitting to us in return.


Maybe this doesn't make sense and if not I blame Benicasa for being my gateway into smoking too much bacon....*cough cough* the salty maple goodness....it burns so good.

Matthew 20:25 explains the Greek terms for ruling military, and monarchian domination. Then Peter explains how he understood that event in 1 Peter 5:3, he uses the same Greek terminology. That's why it is called Servant Leadership,.