BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

A - except you do not believe it is limited to just children.
You believe it is a "right" that should be extended to all.

I don't believe anyone should die in the shadows of a hospital just because they can't afford insurance.

I'm not so sure that I would go as far as to say that it is a "right" in my mind. I see provision of medical insurance as a civil service provided by civil government for the general welfare of the people and the nation at large.

We've already more than paid for it. Sadly, we're being ripped off. For the amount we pay for medical care in this country... compared to the access to care and car covered by insurance... we should be outraged.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Then quit pontificating about what everyone needs to do, support, pay for, etc.

Category fallacy. I don't have any desire to use religion to rule over others. God ordained that civil government take that role.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I and my family live theonomically to the best of our ability. Unlike the leftist socialists like yourself, we do not demand that other people pay our way through life and shield us from reality.

Oh, so you guys, and folks like you, who finally give in and go to the ER are the one's driving up our premiums.

We always end up paying for the slackers that don't want to pay into anything.

But once again, your entire message here on this forum can be summed in one short statement: Jesus may get you to heaven, but Uncle Sam will take care of everything else here and now. You consistently demand everyone put their trust in government programs, cannabis oil, psychoheresy, and anything and everything BUT Jesus Christ. You like to throw out the scare tactic of "Sure you can trust in God, but what if it doesn't work? What about those whom God lets down?" You seem bent on poisoning everyone's faith in God.

Look, the biggest thing I've advocated is universal health insurance. Beyond that, I'm pretty libertarian.

Hey, we get it. You absolutely do NOT want society to obey God, live for God, follow God, or follow the Bible. Cool. Others do. Including Jesus. So enjoy your life while you can. I've got literally three times as many children as you have, and the adult ones are Bible believing, antivaccine, homeschooled, theonomic apostolic believers currently positioning themselves to get married and build large, Bible believing, theonomic, homeschooling, antivax apostolic families.

Until measles or something worse storms through the family. For all I know, they're all drooling, feral, diseased clods already. My kids have had their vaccinations. And, they're doing quite well. Above average I'd say.

So in twenty years you and your personal opinions will be utterly and totally irrelevant.

Only because people like you are racing to the bottom to save a buck. In 20 years, we'll be Romania. But guys like me are tying to prevent that.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

We have hospitals that are the size of small towns, and instead of insurance people need to get up and move around. Stop eating garbage, and eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner, home cooked meals, not out of a can.

We do agree on the emboldened.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Recently I have been looking more deeply into the entire "social compact theory". And I have concluded it is pure humanistic hogwash. What's interesting is it seems to be the basis for BOTH socialism and "libertarianism".

Rather than adhering to some "ism", perhaps you would consider looking into the Biblical concept of "the Kingdom" and what that really entails, and how it applies to social structures. Unless you believe that "minimalist/volunteerist/libertarianism" is what the Bible teaches is the Divinely ordained and preferred form of society that Christians are to seek?

Biblically speaking, ancient Israel could be classified economically as agrarian socialist, or perhaps even distributist. (Please note, agrarian socialism isn't "big government" socialism.)

We don't have to reduce the United States to an agrarian state of goat herders to please God. I've been to other countries, Canada, Belgium, Netherlands and a couple other less exotic places under less than desirable circumstances. The world is advancing. America will be weakened and exploited by those nations who are advancing, especially if she reverts back to the 1800's.

I have good friends who are Christian Anarchists. They sound very much like you. But instead of wishing to drag American into their vision, they seek the right to live as they choose, apart from the government, as much as possible. They are antivax, they grow and raise the vast majority of their own food, they home school, make a living through trades, and live rather communally. Now, they aren't theonomic in the sense of your vision of theonomics. They do believe in living in community, the law is "love Jesus and love your neighbor as yourself". They don't believe in incorporation, ministerial licensing, marriage licensing, etc., etc. In fact, they don't even believe in voting or participating in the system if at all possible to avoid doing so. They tend to lean on herbal and home remedies. They midwife, they rarely go to the hospital, if ever. They are very peaceful. They have voiced condemnation against what they believe to be the exploitation and abuse of God's creation and the harm it causes others. They are definitely separate from the world.

They aren't trying to resurrect ancient Israel and preach a fascist gospel that will topple the United States and kill people who disagree. I like these guys. They aren't out to force anything down anyone's throat. They simply declare their right to live off the grid or as separately as they desire, while bringing in like minded folks. I can respect that. In fact, I've often considered deeper involvement with them.

But Christian Reconstructionism compared these precious pacifist people is a fascist, genocidal, power mad, religio-political hybrid, beast like creature.

I have no problems with folks who sincerely wish to live their lives a specific way. Be they Quaker, Amish, Mennonite, whatever. What I disdain is the Reconstructionist goal of becoming the very beast it's denouncing... while using God as justification for their bloody fascist vision.

If there were a vision I could grasp in good conscience, it would be the Christian Anarchist vision. Christian Anarchists generally believe in:

- Radical separation of church & state.
- Obeying laws that serve the common good.
- Practice pacifism.
- Oppose war.
- Oppose serving on juries.
- Oppose oaths.
- Abstain from voting.
- Oppose discrimination in all forms.
- Do not pledge allegiance to the state.
- Support homeschooling.
- Support herbal and natural medicine.
- Support trades and apprenticeship.
- Do not support church incorporation.
- Do not support state minister's licensing.
- Oppose state marriage licensing.
- Oppose institutional religion.
- Oppose political partisanship in the church.
- Oppose institutionalized religious hierarchy.
- Embrace communal fellowship.
- Believe in stewardship over ownership.
- Believe in distribution of any tax revenues for the common good.

And these people aren't on a political quest to one day again their vision through some political take over. They just up and decided to live it.

How would a Christian Anarchist fare in a Christian Reconstructionist society? Because they would oppose the very same authoritarianism under a Christian Reconstructionist society as they do in a secular society.

[Aquila]

A true Christianity will not repeat the oppression and authoritarian quest for power as seen among secular governments. Nor will it resurrect the decayed carcass of the reprobate nation of ancient Israel, nor the old covenant it was predicated upon.

Christians, if embracing any kind of political perspective, would be Christian anarchist.

Christian Anarchism Defined:

Christian anarchism is a movement in political theology that claims anarchism is inherent in Christianity and the Gospels. It is grounded in the belief that there is only one source of authority to which Christians are ultimately answerable - the authority of God as embodied in the teachings of Jesus. As a result it rejects the idea that human governments have ultimate authority over Christian communities. Christian anarchists denounce the state as they claim it is violent, deceitful and, when glorified, idolatrous. Christian anarchists hold that the proper relationship between God and people is the "Reign of God" in which human relationships would be characterized by divided authority, servant leadership, and universal compassion rather than the hierarchical, authoritarian structures normally attributed to civil government and religion.

More than any other Bible source, the Sermon on the Mount is used as the basis for Christian anarchism. Most Christian anarchists are pacifists and reject the use of violence.

Bible passages cited by Christian anarchists:

◾My kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36).
◾We are to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29).
◾To seek rule by man is to reject the rule of God (1 Samuel 8).
◾Christians struggle against philosophies, governments, rulers, and spiritual wickedness (Ephesians 6:12).
◾Honest people are too busy making an honest living to accept political power, so only the corruptible will seek political power (Judges 9:7-15, The Parable of the Trees).
◾The devil offers all kingdoms to Jesus in return for worshipping him. He is lord over this world's systems (Matthew 4:8-10).
◾The gentiles have rulers over them, but it shall not be so among Christians (Mark 10:42-45). (Notice that the word for rulers here in the Greek is archos. Therefore some say Christians are by simple deduction an-archos or in English anarchists).

Christian Anarchists generally believe in:

- Radical separation of church & state.
- Obeying laws that serve the common good.
- Practice pacifism.
- Oppose war.
- Oppose serving on juries.
- Oppose oaths.
- Abstain from voting.
- Oppose discrimination in all forms.
- Do not pledge allegiance to the state.
- Support homeschooling.
- Support herbal and natural medicine.
- Support trades and apprenticeship.
- Do not support church incorporation.
- Do not support state minister's licensing.
- Oppose state marriage licensing.
- Oppose institutional religion.
- Oppose political partisanship in the church.
- Oppose institutionalized religious hierarchy.
- Embrace communal fellowship.
- Believe in stewardship over ownership.
- Believe in distribution of any tax revenues for the common good.

Some excellent works from a Christian anarchist position were written by Leo Tolstoy.

Many statist Christians like to point to Romans 13:1-7 as a proof text that we are to obey and be allegiant to earthly governments. Christian anarchists tend to interpret the passage differently. Here's a break down of the Christian anarchist take on it:

Romans 13:1-7 English Standard Version (ESV)
13 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. (Earthly governments in power are only present because God has allowed them to be so. Christians are not to engage in revolt against earthly governments but to submit with reluctance. To engage in violent revolutionary acts will bring God's judgment upon us.) 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. (Earthly governments serve as an instrument through which God may punish the wickedness of man. Therefore, we should be as law abiding and as peaceable as possible.) 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. (Violent revolt against earthly governments is not God's will, and to begin violent revolt will only scar the conscience.) 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. (Also, we are to pay taxes so that we can aid in keeping the social order and have a clean conscience before the ungodly state.)

Also, another text under consideration would be Titus 3:1-2...

Titus 3:1-2 English Standard Version (ESV)
1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

This is interpreted to mean that Christians are to obey laws and authorities as much as is possible, being ready to share Christ and Christ's kingdom. Christians are not to engage in sedition, nor instigate civil unrest. But rather we are to be gentle, showing courtesy towards all people.

This is very similar to...

1 Peter 2:13-17 English Standard Version (ESV)
13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. 16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. 17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Again, Christians are not to engage in violent revolt nor revolutions. We are to respect all in authority, and keep a peaceful and law abiding witness (love thine enemies). However, we are to live as people who are indeed free, not using our liberty to plan or plot insurrection. But rather we are to seek to live as servants of God in the midst of a fallen and wicked world. We are to be respectful of all men. However, we are beholden only to God and Christian community.

Most of this is, in the Christian anarchist's view, an admonition not to engage in armed rebellion, violent overthrow, engage in sedition, launch revolution, or unnecessarily disrespect the tyrants in authority. We are to remain separate from the world. But respectful of its systems. However, through example Paul demonstrated that when the government clashes with the will of God, we obey God over government.

[Aquila]

So, the Christian Reconstructionist is still as much of a "statist" as the most leftwing liberal socialist. Only, the Christian Reconstructionist is brainwashed, with wide eyes, embracing the errant interpretations of equally flawed men like Rushdoony, Chilton, Johnson, and North. Rushdoony and Karl Marx are just human beings with a socio-political agenda to gain... followers. Are you a follower? Will you allow either one of them to interpret something so important? I pray not. Because if you would, you're just another follower of a statist vision of power.

But if you sincerely feel that this society is one that is so sinful you cannot bear to live under its authority... then seek Christian Anarchism. I've considered it. Christian anarchism rejects the authoritarianism of capitalism, socialism, reconstructionism, etc. Christian anarchism is voluntary and communal. Individuals live in accordance to the standards and practices of the community they voluntarily choose to associate with. They live as sovereign sons and daughters of God and seek to be as free from any state interference as they freely choose as individuals. They can be as sovereign as being off the grid entirely... or just as parents who homeschool. There is no force or manipulation of conviction. However, the standards of the community are to be upheld. If one violates the standards of their community, they will be shunned by the community. Standards among Christian Anarchists are typically predicated upon New Testament values and standards of conduct and practice. And, there is no centralized authority defining NT conduct and practice for every community. Each community is to search the Scriptures and voluntarily adopt what standards they wish to embrace based upon what they see and understand in the New Testament.

No authoritarianism. No statism. Not even Christian authoritarianism or Christian statism. Simply voluntary associations and governance by independent Christian community. It is believed that within these communities, the Kingdom of God is made manifest... leaving all strictly under the rule of Christ alone.

Frankly, that sounds far better than the Christian fascism that would be imposed by Reconstructionists.

Unless one's true motivation is to rule over others and execute those who they deem to be "sinners" based on their own interpretations of God's Word. And that my friends is a level of force beyond the vision of Christ's Kingdom.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Biblically speaking, ancient Israel could be classified economically as agrarian socialist, or perhaps even distributist. (Please note, agrarian socialism isn't "big government" socialism.)

Does there exist any modern civilization that is not predominately agrarian in practice. In the context of tithing, I have been told many times that Israel was an agrarian society, as though they were some strange, primitive, neanderthal people. They were agrarian as opposed to what? Hunter gatherers?

These comments will usually be made by a person whose lifelong citizenship is United States, which is arguably the most agrarian country in the history of the world. We have the most efficient system for producing food that the world has ever known, yet we tend to think of the Israelites as an agrarian society.

What's up with that?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Does there exist any modern civilization that is not predominately agrarian in practice. In the context of tithing, I have been told many times that Israel was an agrarian society, as though they were some strange, primitive, neanderthal people. They were agrarian as opposed to what? Hunter gatherers?

These comments will usually be made by a person whose lifelong citizenship is United States, which is arguably the most agrarian country in the history of the world. We have the most efficient system for producing food that the world has ever known, yet we tend to think of the Israelites as an agrarian society.

What's up with that?

we are an industrial society (maybe post industrial), even agricultural is industrialized.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Does there exist any modern civilization that is not predominately agrarian in practice. In the context of tithing, I have been told many times that Israel was an agrarian society, as though they were some strange, primitive, neanderthal people. They were agrarian as opposed to what? Hunter gatherers?

These comments will usually be made by a person whose lifelong citizenship is United States, which is arguably the most agrarian country in the history of the world. We have the most efficient system for producing food that the world has ever known, yet we tend to think of the Israelites as an agrarian society.

What's up with that?

Not sure. There's nothing wrong with being an agrarian society. The foundation of any culture, no matter how advanced, is its agrarian foundations. For without produce, food, grain, and farming, no such nation can exist. It is a philosophy rooted in collective farming and cooperatives with workers, and even the poor, to ensure that none went hungry. The relationships in an agrarian society were deeply interrelated, and so to work together for the common good was in the best interests of everyone to ensure survival. In the trades found in ancient Israel we also see trade guilds, cooperatives, and apprenticeships. Tradesmen actually felt their labor was worthy of the barter and contract. They were not wage slaves. If you had need to hire skilled tradesmen, you would approach a guild and hire them for the work based on contract.

In today's more urban technological society we see shades of this in collective bargaining (trade unions) and local farming cooperatives. Corporatism has nearly eviscerate this way of life in our modern world, reducing everyone to a wage slave who stands alone without any sense of solidarity with others in their field. Divide and conquer. And divide they did.

The philosophy that none in a society would truly starve to death and perish in destitution was picked up by social democrats in Europe in the 1900's. As society became more industrial, urban, and technological the harvests became paychecks, the guilds became unions, etc. The key to understanding all of this "socialism" of whatever form it is, is the concept of solidarity. Sadly, we lack solidarity in our families, communities, churches, trades, career fields, etc. We're such rugged individualists... we glory in substandard wages and our personal struggle... even if we die coughing in an indigent bed without any healthcare. To a society that is predicated upon solidarity, such is a horrific tragedy. We live together, work together, raise families together, provide for one another. If one of us languishes and dies without care, we all are lesser for it. This isn't some communistic collectivism... this is simply how societies have survived since ancient times. The corporate mantra in our hijacked capitalist system is that collectives are bad. Really? For whom? The corporation, that's who. Because if we had solidarity, we'd demand our share... for it is our labor that makes the CEO filthy rich and brings shareholders profit. And they don't want to relinquish what is rightfully ours. And so CEOs make hundreds and often thousands of times a year more than their average employee who struggles through insurmountable trial to simply pay the bills and put food on the table for their family. The corporate conglomerates of our society are the modern plantation. And we're all salves. They've hijacked actual capitalism where in goods and even services are capital, often cooperative,.... and switched it with a fascist corporatism that has turned even war into a most lucrative business venture.

It's sickening.

But in short, the tithe was an agrarian land tax placed on land owners to help care for the needs of the Levites, the poor, and the temple. They didn't even have the word "socialism" in their vocabulary. They called it, "justice".