2 Peter 3

[Esaias]

And here is NEW TESTAMENT PROOF OF THE POINT:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now for some New Testament examples:

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(Revelation 2:1-5)

Here, a threatened "coming of the Lord" is clearly a reference to a visitation of judgment against a church caught up in errors and backsliding. It is not that the second coming would take place, but that the Lord would "come" and remove the church from it's position as one of His churches. Again, the "coming of the Lord" is a term or concept referencing a visitation in judgment.

And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
(Revelation 2:12-16)

Again, we see the same thing: a wayward church that refused to repent would suffer a "coming of the Lord" in judgment. Notice, that in these two New Testament examples, the predicted comings of the Lord are CONDITIONAL. They are conditioned upon the spiritual condition of the respective churches, whether they would repent or not.

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(Revelation 3:1-3)

Again, a conditional, threatened "coming of the Lord", this time with "thief in the night" language.

So far, we have seen no less than three "comings of the Lord" in the Old Testament, and another three just in the book of Revelation alone. In each of these cases, the coming of the Lord was a prophetic, descriptive term for a visitation of Divine judgment upon nations or churches or the unrepentant ones within certain churches.

But the coming of the Lord is not limited to instances of Divine judgment or punishment, as in this Old Testament prophecy:

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
(Malachi 3:1-6)

Here, the arrival of Christ is prophesied as a coming of the Lord, indeed as a coming that involved judgment. But not in the execution of punishment! He was to come near in judgment and be a WITNESS against sin and sinners. We know that when Christ came, He came and bore witness of the truth against the ungodliness of the world, yet He did not come to execute vengeance upon them, but to save them from their sins. So here we see a coming of the Lord that, while it includes the idea of judgment, it is focused on MERCY. It is the arrival of the King. Once He arrives, and bears witness against sin, then (having been established as King and "the messenger of the covenant") He is able to execute judgment against His enemies.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You do not allow the Old Testament to properly inform your understanding. The apostles taught, and expected the listeners to verify what they taught from Scripture. Yet the only Scripture in existence was the Old Testament. Therefore, they would understand "day of the Lord" as the OT uses it, not as you use it, with a wholly new limited sense that cannot be proven by any means other than because you say so.

This is a 100% correct because I've yet to read the scripture where Paul or anyone else said that they got a new revelation of the day of the Lord, and if that we're so it would've been said. Otherwise, this becomes more of that trinitatarian view of the Bible that we don't have to follow anything that's not in the NT when there is only 1 book which is probably a letter written to someone Theophilus a bunch more letters and one book of Prophecy. As if the Apostles who wrote the NT besides for the Apostle John didn't even know know what they were writing was going to be holy scripture at all. They never read the NT they were the NT and all they had was the OT. So we can chalk up all that train of thought to simply to a man's idea somewhere between the 15th century and now, but it has nothing to do with Jesus or His teaching. I've yet to see The passage that advocates that teaching, yet I hear it used all the time as a rule of thumb to Biblical Interpretation. "It didn't say it in the NT, so we don't have to follow that anymore..." I guess I never read that scripture, I wonder who said it? Does anyone know enlighten us all...

[Michael The Disciple]

Let us remember that Jesus is BOTH....Lord and Christ.

Acts 2:36

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

With that in mind let us examine the apostle Paul's teaching concerning that day.

1 Cor. 1:7

7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pauls point here is the day of the LORD Jesus Christ. The day when he will come for the saints.

2 Cor. 1:13-4

13For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; 14As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Again he points the Corinthians to "the end" which to him is the DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.

So to Paul the day of the Lord means both "the end" of the present age or "order" and the coming of Jesus.

Philippians 1:6

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Phil. 1:9-10

9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Phil. 2:16

16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Three times Paul mentions the "day of Christ" as the day of HIS COMING for the saints just to this one Church at Philippi. If you mentioned the day of the Lord to those disciples TO THEM you would have been talking about the time when Jesus was coming FOR THEM!

But....is Paul done yet teaching about the coming day of the Lord Jesus?

To the Thessalonians he writes:

1 Thess 4:15-17

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul here describes the personal coming of Jesus to receive his people to himself. The event in our time commonly called the rapture. What some fail to see is that Paul just TWO VERSES LATER calls this the DAY OF THE LORD!

1 Thess 5:1-3



1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So the apostle Paul did NOT separate the day of the Lord from the coming judgment. He packages them together. The day of the Lord TO HIM being that which he just described TWO VERSES EARLIER.....even the coming of Christ for the saints and judgment on those who were sleeping spiritually.

End of part 1.

[Amanah]

My comments on 2 Peter after reading the thread responses and reading 2 Peter again:

Peter is writing to the church to remind them that they have been given the divine nature so that they can overcome worldly lust so that they can make their calling and election sure.

Peter is getting ready to die and wants to remind them of what he taught them. They are not to follow fables and false teachers.

Peter witnessed Jesus being transfigured on the mount. Peter is an eyewitness. So, he is a credible.

Damnable heresies are the issue. People denying the Lord Jesus who bought them. These false teachers are going to be judged, just like the people in Noah's time were judged. People who are saying to live in sin because the Lord did not come and will not come. Also some are backsliding because of the false teachers and returning to their sin.

People are saying that nothing has changed since the beginning of time, so Jesus was not the fulfillment of the promises of the fathers.

God is patient and long suffering with judgment, but those who teach false doctrine, or return to their sin like dogs to their vomit are going to be judged just as the people in Noah's day were judged.

So, be careful that you are not also led into error and judgment.

[Amanah]

The problem with systems of interpretation such as Dispensationalism or Covenant Theology is everything is read with an end in mind, with preconceived ideas.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The problem with systems of interpretation such as Dispensationalism or Covenant Theology is everything is read with an end in mind, with preconceived ideas.

Absolutely agree with that, and I think we as Apostolic's need to come out of these boxes created by Trinitarian's. If someone is going to create a hybrid Theology it has to be in this area. It makes no sense to not agree on soteriology, sanctification, the identity of God, and then agree on Eschatology. But your right sis it all is viewed through a certain lens, with a predetermined view in mind. And in that, you cant see anything outside of that. Or even comprehend anything anyone is saying outside of that line of thinking. I'd rather sit back and observe it with no predisposed ideas, and look into it and see what the Bible is relating. I believe this is a area as a movement that this is needed like never before.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Absolutely agree with that, and I think we as Apostolic's need to come out of these boxes created by Trinitarian's. If someone is going to create a hybrid Theology it has to be in this area. It makes no sense to not agree on soteriology, sanctification, the identity of God, and then agree on Eschatology. But your right sis it all is viewed through a certain lens, with a predetermined view in mind. And in that, you cant see anything outside of that. Or even comprehend anything anyone is saying outside of that line of thinking. I'd rather sit back and observe it with no predisposed ideas, and look into it and see what the Bible is relating. I believe this is a area as a movement that this is needed like never before.

You're on the right track. I believe there is a Biblical "system of eschatology", but to find it we have to first, drop whatever hand me down borrowed isms we've been exposed to and then second, start at Genesis and just let the Word teach us all about it.

Everybody wants to start at the end, Revelation, probably the most complicated book of the Bible. You can't build a house by beginning with the interior decorating, you have to have a good foundation FIRST.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You're on the right track. I believe there is a Biblical "system of eschatology", but to find it we have to first, drop whatever hand me down borrowed isms we've been exposed to and then second, start at Genesis and just let the Word teach us all about it.

Everybody wants to start at the end, Revelation, probably the most complicated book of the Bible. You can't build a house by beginning with the interior decorating, you have to have a good foundation FIRST.

Or better yet why not let Jesus Christ, the Lord of both the Old and New Testament teach us? He was fully aware of and knowledgeable of the things the prophets saw and spoke of. He spoke of his coming again for his people, the end times, and trained his apostles so they would get his message out.

Many of the "eschatology" teachers are making things more garbled and confused than bringing clarity.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Or better yet why not let Jesus Christ, the Lord of both the Old and New Testament teach us? He was fully aware of and knowledgeable of the things the prophets saw and spoke of. He spoke of his coming again for his people, the end times, and trained his apostles so they would get his message out.

MTD once again no one is disputing these things, just your interpretation of the time table of events. You are totally overlooking 2000 years of events. Would you at least admit the great falling away has happened, beginning in the 3rd century?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Or better yet why not let Jesus Christ, the Lord of both the Old and New Testament teach us? He was fully aware of and knowledgeable of the things the prophets saw and spoke of. He spoke of his coming again for his people, the end times, and trained his apostles so they would get his message out.

Many of the "eschatology" teachers are making things more garbled and confused than bringing clarity.

I have studied prophecy, beginning in Genesis and moving forward. Including through the NT. As a result, your end times outlook just doesn't cut the mustard. For me, anyway. Your mileage may vary.

I don't think you have a solid base from which to even begin a study of prophecy. You say "Why not let Jesus teach us?" but you won't actually let Him do that, instead you want Him to teach you your version of post trib futurism.

It's been Biblically proven that "the coming of the Lord" and "the day of the Lord" do not necessarily always refer to what you think of as the Second Coming. So just because those phrases appear in a text doesn't mean it is always talking about the Second Advent.
your apparent refusal to acknowledge that reality renders your opinions on eschatology irrelevant to me.

Jesus taught many things about prophecy you clearly don't believe, because they don't fit your system. And, all your system REALLY amounts to is "at some point, some rough stuff will happen, it's just gonna get worse, so no need to make any efforts to do anything except wait to die." Literally, in PRACTICAL terms, no different than the rapture cult in it's actual effects.

Would your eschatology ever convince you to encourage young people to get married, and have as many children as possible, and work on building a better future for their grandkids? Or no?