UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

OK, I will make a futile attempt here. Ephesians 4:11-13 is telling you that these positions are to be held by mature elders, who will in turn mature saints to do the work of elders. So, they can come to the knowledge of Christ. I already pointed out with Paul's own words that he didn't "apostle" right away.

I pointed out that Paul straightway preached Jesus. You pretend that he didn’t.

Did Paul straightway preach Jesus?

Yes or no.

By your reasoning a rabbi could convert to Christianity and become a bishop because of his schooling in Judaism. Maybe a Muslim could too? They have the Pentateuch, no? How far do you go down that road?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Ehud

How much “Christian training” did this ridiculously educated man need to simply proclaim Christ as Son of God? You’re acting as if he’d never seen a scripture before. He wasn’t some random guy who meandered into the synagogue.

My point is that all of that education did what? It lead him to persecute Christians. It was not until he met Jesus that he became qualified to preach. The education is not the qualifier.

The other apostles were not (formally at least) highly educated men. They were fishermen and such? Probably no Harvard degrees there. I like that Paul was highly educated, but he was a man chosen by God. That was his qualification. It wasn’t his education.

Paul was a Pharisee. Did that qualify him to be an apostle? Jesus was not very complimentary of the Pharisees and all of their law knowledge. Was He?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I pointed out that Paul straightway preached Jesus. You pretend that he didn’t.

Did Paul straightway preach Jesus?

Yes or no.

By your reasoning a rabbi could convert to Christianity and become a bishop because of his schooling in Judaism. Maybe a Muslim could too? They have the Pentateuch, no? How far do you go down that road?

You are talking about preaching, while the others are talking about serving in various leadership capacities (particularly oversight or "eldering"). I dont know ANYONE in Pentecost who would say "No, you are too new of a convert to be witnessing or even street preaching."

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

My point is that all of that education did what? It lead him to persecute Christians. It was not until he met Jesus that he became qualified to preach. The education is not the qualifier.

The other apostles were not (formally at least) highly educated men. They were fishermen and such? Probably no Harvard degrees there. I like that Paul was highly educated, but he was a man chosen by God. That was his qualification. It wasn’t his education.

Paul was a Pharisee. Did that qualify him to be an apostle? Jesus was not very complimentary of the Pharisees and all of their law knowledge. Was He?

Education isn't the *only* qualifier, but I'm sure it gave him a head start in being able to connect the dots after his conversion. In addition to proclaiming Jesus as Son of God, all he did was go in and prove that Jesus was the Christ. He didn't take control of a congregation or, as Brother Benincasa put it, start "apostle-ing" immediately. And that is what we're discussing, not a new convert's ability to testify that Jesus is Lord. Paul disappeared for three years after this event. It wasn't until after that process he assumed any real authority.

Your second paragraph only proves that the education need not be formal. Some sort of training is necessary though. My seven-year-old can get up and proclaim Jesus is the Son of God, but he isn't going to be proving anything to anyone any time soon.

Paul being a Pharisee didn't qualify him to be an apostle, but again, it sure gave hm a nice head start on the knowledge necessary to proclaim Jesus as Christ. (Which I believe was all he did prior to his disappearance into Arabia, though I could be mistaken.) Also, I don't recall Jesus questioning the Pharisees' knowledge of the law. He despised their application of it, but that is a whole other conversation.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You are talking about preaching, while the others are talking about serving in various leadership capacities (particularly oversight or "eldering"). I dont know ANYONE in Pentecost who would say "No, you are too new of a convert to be witnessing or even street preaching."

Thank you for injecting some sanity!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Thank you for injecting some sanity!

After I read Esaias' post I was going to post the EXACT same words.

Who are you?

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

After I read Esaias' post I was going to post the EXACT same words.

Who are you?

As often as you and I seem to be on the same page, — though I don’t always articulate it very well — others are probably wondering the same.