Be Perfect Be Pure

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

But you do sin. And so do I. So does Michael and Esaias. Are you not "perfect" because that is so? I would say, on the contrary, that you still are, because you obviously are seeking to grow in him and are becoming more mature each day.

Costeon, that really doesn't make any sense. They who work righteousness are just like Jesus who is righteous. They who sin are of the devil, and are not God's offspring 1 John 3:7-9. Calvinism holds to a belief system which teaches you that you are under sins control until you are translated to heaven at some future time. Unable to have any control through the Holy Ghost while you are still alive. Now, you may say that you are less sinning then you were at the beginning of your journey. Or as you put it, "rarely" sinning. But we don't find that in the Bible, or the New Testament. The Old Testament Judeans and Israelites certainly believed that you can be free from sin, but they just didn't believe God had to be part of that equation. They felt that they can do as the pagans. Place God in His temple, do the list of dos and don'ts and wait for the sacrifice to be consumed. Cain offered what he was supposed to offer, he dotted the i s and crossed the t s , and sat back and waited for the thumbs up. All without any love, respect, honor, or devote worship. therefore his sacrifice was rejected because of his attitude. 1 John 3 sews it up, and there is no way around what it is trying to tell us. You were translated into the kingdom of His dear son, then allow yourself to be filled with the Holy Ghost. No more walking in the flesh, start walking in the Spirit.
Baptism for the remission of sins is meaningless if we get out of the water to speak in tongues while we are committing adultery.

Originally Posted by Costeon

I think the main issue in this thread is that we're not all operating on the same definition of what perfection is. You say, "Perfection is maturity." I would agree--but I don't think I clearly understand what exactly you mean by "maturity." Maturity, to me, does not mean sinless perfection at every moment for all of life. If I am wrong here, no one is mature.

No one is mature? Again, you gauge this by your own standard of experiences. People you may personally, know? You yourself being your greatest example of a Christian struggling in sin? Therefore you feel it is impossible to be mature in a way where you don't commit the same crimes as you did as a young convert Ephesians 4:28.

Originally Posted by Costeon

Michael in his videos seems to assert that perfection means sinless perfection--along with the terrible idea that Jesus does not love us if we fail in any way. I take it from how Esaias has responded that that is his view as well (not the Jesus doesn't love you part; he has not said that). No one has given an actual example of someone who never sins . . . ever. According to Scripture, only Jesus is entirely sinless.

The Apostle Paul gave not only his credentials but that he was without fault concerning the Law. We also read in Luke that Zacharias and Elizabeth was blameless before God Luke 1:6. In Ezekiel 14:14 we are given a list of three men of God who would of cut the mustard with God. Noah, Daniel and Job. Was that post Pentecost Acts 2:38? New Testament Calvinist band-aid on a bullet wound? No, they were Old Testament law keepers, who by faith looked for the one who would come later, who is Jesus Christ. We all live by faith, and are renewed day by day 2 Corinthians 4:16. The outer man, carnal, childish, beast nature perishes (if we let it) and the inner man grows to an adult. Outer man perishes, and the inner man matures Colossians 3:10. Only you can stop this process. Jesus is able to keep us, but Jesus is a gentleman, He will never force us to follow Him.

Originally Posted by Costeon

I definitely agree that we are to look to the Bible for our example of what a spiritually mature believer is like.

But instead of looking around you for the example of mature perfection, look at Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Paul told the Corinthians to follow him as he followed Christ. Christ was his pastor, his only legitimate example, or maturity in perfection. Putting on the mind of Christ Philippians 2:5-8 is the helmet of salvation Ephesians 6:17, and walking in the light as He is in the light 1 John 1:7 brings us to the ultimate goal of growing up in Him Ephesians 4:15.

Originally Posted by Costeon

I had mentioned that the goal is sinless perfection. So, to the passages you have listed, I would say amen. We are to seek to be free from sin, and thank God, by the power of the Holy Spirit, we can live an overcoming life, that is, a life characterized by obedience to God.

Costeon, now you are singing the song of truth, but in the next quote you flip flop?

Originally Posted by Costeon

To me that does not, however, mean that from now until Jesus comes I will never fail in thought, word, or deed. I will never get to a place in this life where I never have to pray the prayer Jesus told us to pray, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." I trust that as I grow in maturity I will not have to pray it as often. :-)

You are focusing on the wrong thing. The focus isn't on you, your own ability to walk on water, but the ability that He is calling you to walk out there and go to Him. Jesus promises you to complete the good work in you, that is our focus, not that what if, or maybe I don't, or someday over the rainbow I trip and fall into sin. Jesus is the author and finisher of our FAITH. The best time to prove to ourselves that we can do this through Christ is in our darkest hour. When no one can see us, when we are put to the test, and we are able to be at peace to hold onto the victory in Jesus.

Originally Posted by Costeon

It seems to me we all are also operating on a different understanding of sin. Of course I don't think there's a good chance a Spirit-filled believer may commit adultery or murder on any given day, or commit any other "big sin." It seems at least some in this thread are focusing on the biggies; I am mostly thinking about sins of thought and attitude, things we are much more susceptible to--and anyone who has read this forum for a long enough time will surely have seen what appear to be sins of attitude.

But don't you think that may be a problem? That it is that sort of immaturity within us to self justify, by convincing ourselves that there are levels in sin?
Sin is displeasing God, it is being instructed in how to get the job done, and failing to WANT to complete the task at hand. Want and need are two very different things, and we may need to do it but we don't want to do it. Immature, and mature, getting out of bed to face the world, no matter how bad it is for us, mature, staying under the bed when we need to face the world, immature. Having to schlep the first fruit of your harvest out to the altar, because it is expected of you because its your religious duty. Hence the sacrifice is rejected because its immaturity on your part. Your brother on the other hand can't wait to bring the first fruit of his flock, and slides into the altar with total unbridled devotion. His sacrifice is ecstatically received.

Originally Posted by Costeon

Paul's discussion in Gal 5 about the sins of the flesh is instructive: 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

It seems many people focus on things like the sexual immorality, idolatry, drunkenness, and the orgies--the biggies--but overlook the enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions and "things like these." This is why I have asked people in this thread do they always love their neighbor as themselves.

So, maybe it would be helpful if we just as succinctly as possible state what we think a mature or perfect Christian is like.

I would say a mature Christian is one who thanks God every day that he has been justified and is counted righteous in God's sight, not for any of his works, lest there be any boasting, but because of his faith in Christ and having the righteousness of Christ imputed to his account, and then out of gratefulness for this precious gift, he seeks to actually become what God has already declared him to be: righteous. He lives a life characterized by obedience and fulfilling the will of God, but for various reasons, will at times fail in thought, word, or deed, and when he does, he prays the prayer Jesus taught us to pray for forgiveness so that he abides in Christ's love, that is, he does not allow anything to simply remain in his life that would disrupt his loving, intimate relationship with Christ.

Calvinism is a bit confusing, because it double speaks itself. It talks about intimate relationships with God but still messing up from time to time. Double mindedness is called spiritual instability, but Calvinism teaches just that, ecclesiastically bi polar Christianity. We are actually taught to be like Cain. Just go out there and do the Christian dos and don'ts, talk Christianisms act Christianisms, and God will accept the sacrifice. Not to be like Abel who was totally in love with God, and going beyond the shopping list.