Chris Reed

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Esaias

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And I think sometimes we generally forget that the gifts are "operations/working of the Spirit" not operations or workings of the individual. God does what He wants when He wants how He wants using whomever He wants. If gifts are lacking it may just be due to the fact that at THAT time God doesn't want to do that. Perhaps to remind an assembly just how dependent they need to be on the PRESENT manifest presence of God.

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[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

One the one hand, we have the idea that the gifts are lacking because people are not measuring up to high standards. Then on the other hand we have the idea that the gifts are disconnected from and not dependent on any such moral, ethical, or doctrinal standards.

Which seems to me to be a bit of a paradox. If gifts are not dependent on orthodoxy or morality or spirituality (!), then there ought to be no lack at all of charismata in today's church world.

On the other hand, if there IS a connection - that "no man can do these works except he be sent by God" - then either a lot of "gifts" simply aren't or we need to seriously re-evaluate our entire understanding of the whole subject.

And I think sometimes we generally forget that the gifts are "operations/working of the Spirit" not operations or workings of the individual. God does what He wants when He wants how He wants using whomever He wants. If gifts are lacking it may just be due to the fact that at THAT time God doesn't want to do that. Perhaps to remind an assembly just how dependent they need to be on the PRESENT manifest presence of God.

Which reminds me - if the manifestation of the Spirit is literally the manifesting presence of Jehovah God, then it would seem incongruous for people not in line with the will of God in at least some fundamental, basic sense, to be running around "manifesting the gifts".

So many things to consider.

2 Timothy 1:6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

There is also a degree of faith required. Gifts are simply spoken against in so many congregations, that if one had one they would not use it! The variables are endless.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You have a point, agreed. I actually thought of that later after I wrote it. And you confirmed it.

I guess I should adjust my point to mean that people without compassion will make a mess in the kingdom should they operate the gifts, as the Corinthians obviously were. Nevertheless, compassionless Christianity would also see lack of even care to use them. I've seen much of that, to the extent that the wines who focus more on condemnation NEVER have them in operation, and mock those who do saying it is not of God. Like the oneness condemned who thinks a trinitarian does not get the REAL Holy Ghost.

The Gifts of God are without repentance tis true, and they are powerful, however they are only as good as the life lived behind the Gift.
Case in point. I was engaged in the eighties to a wonderful woman from Mississippi. I was going to move down where she was but immigration in Nebraska lost my application. The job fell through, and things cooled. She wasn't interested in moving to Canada .
I fell into bitterness and struggled in my walk with God for two years.
Due to my struggle an evil spirit was troubling me. I wasn't possessed but oppressed.
I met a backslider at another Saints home, who wasn't home at the time. He started complaining about the Church, I started walking away saying I was not interested in hearing it. He yelled out, what would you know, you are possessed. I shrugged him off. He obviously saw a demon oppressing me but his life wasn't deep enough to discern the difference between oppression and possession.
I eventually got things sorted out with God the demon left and I got clearer perception on the will of God
It wasn't the will of God for me to go to the US.
I call it the gifts being tainted by the flesh. One needs to get the flesh out of the way for the Gifts to operate properly.

JMHO

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Why are you taking the same view as the Jehovah's Witnesses?

Apparently you know more about what JW's believe than I do.

And why would you take that view while being an "Admin" on an Apostolic Forum.

This is just very weird to me, and disturbing.

And here you regularly accuse Esaias and others of being tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy theorists? Apparently you don't mind dipping your toes into the same waters when it suits you.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I refer to the point that the Gospels say, except for those with unbelief, He "healed them all."

Referring to something the Gospels declare doesn't mean anything. You have to correctly interpret what the Gospels declare and fit it within the greater framework of the entire canon of the Bible and the mission of Christ. You can't just say Jesus "healed them all" and presume to walk away with a mic drop like you owned your opponent.

And worse than that, you really shouldn't use a verse of the Bible you clearly misunderstand as a justification for making up the claptrap you posted about cancer and deafness causing people with cancer and deafness to be anti-Kingdom or imply Jesus isn't involved with them because if He was, they wouldn't have cancer or deafness.

You reap what you sow, Sister, and will be judged by every vain thing you say.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe that today, we don't expect everyone to be healed. The Catholic Church is very big on suffering for Christ's sake.

As a matter of fact, many who have posted on this forum including the previous forum don't teach or believe that everyone will be or should be filled with the Holy Spirit/Ghost as the Apostles were. That is false doctrine and it is unbelief. It is also interesting, in that, every single person who holds that belief speaks in tongues or has spoken in tongues. Crazy, IMO.

How does God work in that environment? He finds those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

I have prayed for myself and have been healed, many times. I have had others pray for me and been healed. I believe in healing. But, I can't make others believe or have any level of faith. It is up to the individual.

Only knowing my experiences, I cannot answer for every person. That is God's business. Otherwise we end up as Job - vascillating between faith and doubt or like his three friends - narcissists thinking we have all the answers.

Ehud might be satisfied with this, but I am not. Note the emboldened text above. You have been healed "many times". How about 100% of the time? Has everyone you've ever prayed for been healed? Note, too, that you didn't actually answer his opening question.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Paul was teaching the entire congregation at Corinth about the gifts and it appears by the way he spoke in chapter 14 in correction that everyone was involved in the disarray, not just the pastor and elders. And not once does Paul say the average believer should not be operating in them at all after making the indication that they were. Was the congregation entirely made up of apostles? Or did Paul say you who are not apostles should not be doing these things? No. He said they were doing fine when it came to the gifts in and of themselves. They were of God. But he said they were not using compassion and seemingly used them due to wanting to be seen. This was a letter to the church, not the leaders. The note about all being apostles etc, is not to say only apostles should be operating, but to say the ministries are gifts as much as the nine noted in chapter 12, and not everyone is an apostle any more than everyone operates the gift of miracles.

While Paul was teaching the entire congregation, we have to pay attention to what it was he was actually teaching them about. Note 1 Corinthians 12:1,

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

You see that "gifts" is italicized in the KJV, that is, supplied by the translators, which means it's not in the Greek text. Regarding "spiritual", it is the Greek word πνευματικῶν or pneumatikon, from πνευματικός or pneumatikos.

This is key. The word is not χαρισμάτων or charismaton. That word doesn't appear until verse 4. So, in verse 1, Paul is not yet talking about the gifts/special endowments of the grace of the Spirit. He is talking about something else that is spiritual, but not the gifts. What then, is that something?

That something is particular brethren.

Take "gifts" out of verse 1 (since it's not there) and you have:

Now concerning spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Paul is teaching the entire congregation about certain brethren in the church who have been endowed with the charismaton of the Spirit, that is, they are spiritual, i.e. they act in a more supernatural way than everyone else. We know this because pneumatikon is an adjective modifying the noun adelphoi, that is, "brothers".

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/12-1.htm

Also see the ESV footnote on 12:1 here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...A1&version=ESV

Paul doesn't want the entire congregation in Corinth to be ignorant of, that is to say, to not be in the know about, spiritual brethren in the church who experience charismata.

Look at the next several verses:

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

In Corinth, and elsewhere, Gentiles routinely consulted priests who interpreted oracles who prayed to idols or shrine spirits after receiving payment by the supplicants, who then spoke ecstatically and often in unintellible speech, thus the need for interpretation, the most famous of which is the Oracle at Delphi, near Mt. Parnassus by the Gulf of Corinth.

Paul wanted to make certain the church was aware that these spiritual brethren who were endowed with charismata were not pagan oracles or priests of pagan shrines speaking by just any "spirit", but were truly being endowed by the Spirit of God.

And one way the entire congregation could know if a brother was truly spiritual is that, when he spoke, he would never curse Jesus. Clearly then some in Corinth were doing just that, thus showing they were not spiritual brethren, but false prophets. But other truly spiritual brethren, when they spoke by the Spirit, always affirmed that Jesus is Lord, thereby showing that they were of God.

Paul is giving the entire congregation a litmus test here, to judge the brethren in the church who make a claim to charismatic spirituality.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Paul now teaches the congregation that when these spiritual brethren experience their gifts that the entirety of their experiences are coming from the same source: the one and only Spirit of the Lord God, regardless of the differences in their gifts, administrations, and operations.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

I know the tendency is to read this and think "every man" means every saint in every church everywhere for all time. But that's a mistake. Every man here is a subset of the superset spiritual brethren. We know doctrinally this because God gives the gifts of the Spirit unevenly according to His own will, to one this gift, to a different one, that gift, and etc. (verses 8-11). And we know this experientially, because we all know that not every saint in every church, even our own churches, experience any of the charismata.

So, then, as we read the rest of what Paul has to say on the matter, we have to keep in mind that he is teaching the entire congregation, and by extension, the rest of the churches thereafter, what to make of spiritual brethren who have been endowed with special graces of the Holy Spirit, and how to truly know who is spiritual (always affirm the Lordship of Christ), and who is not (calls Christ accursed) and that, by the time Paul concludes in 1 Corinthians 14:37, if any of these brethren in the church think of themselves as being numbered among the spiritual ones endowed by the Holy Spirit with charismata, they must acknowledge that what he has written are the commandments of the Lord.

So, if anyone does not acknowledge all that Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are commandments of the Lord, that brother isn't one of the spiritual ones mentioned in 12:1, regardless of what they think or feel or say.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I’m going to agree with you. This is my personal belief right now, if others don’t believe it, your more than welcome to your own set of faith.

Actually, n-David and myself talked about this a couple months ago or so. And we talked about why those that come for prayer do not get the healing they need. I said what I have been told and that is they must’ve not of had faith! N-David said he believes that was a cop out, and that really stuck with for the past couple months. I just spend a couple days with my Elder who in my opinion is a pioneer of faith, he preached all over the world, he has seen many miracles, preached crusades with other great pioneers of the faith. And as I sat with him in a motel room and his body completely shutting down on him, kidneys wont function properly, heart operating at only 30%, he still has the strength to talk about how good God has been. I was there for a couple hours and as we talked about the goodness of God right before my eyes his whole presence changed, and from when I walked in the hotel room to when I left it was like night from day. He felt better, he was moving around, matter of fact he’s driving 1400 miles to teach his grandson a bible study. God is good!

I said that to say, that elder taught me something I will hold on to by the grace of God. We talked about healing, we talked about why so many today are not receiving their healing. And I told him what I believe and in his kind way he directed me to a more perfect way. He directed me in this way of faith,

James 5:14 KJVS
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James 5:15 KJVS
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

First off, its the individual with the issue of sickness to call for the elder of the church. I read in a book by a pioneer of Pentecost said the faith you have to come up to the platform is faith enough to heal you!
After the individual asks for prayer its now up to the individual doing the prayer. I can anoint him, I can call on the name of the Lord, and if I don't have faith then that individual will not get there healing. It’s on the ministry or the individual being called on in prayer to have the faith that God can heal.

There are two reasons why where not getting the healing we have been promised.

1- There is no faith from the individual praying the prayer
2- The individual with the issue of sickness is being afflicted

James 5:13 KJVS
Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

If your sickness is an affliction from God, God is trying to get your attention. Then it doesn’t say call for the elders, it says let that person pray.

I will never be the same again. As part of the body its my responsibility to be available to the spirit. When the need is there we can respond through the Holy Ghost. It’s not ability its all about availability.

Don’t lose your desire to see the miracles of the Bible! Jesus said, “greater works” I understand he could’ve been talking about a soul receiving the Holy Ghost. Yet, as we come to God as a little child we need to still have that belief that as the church, as an individual with the power of the Holy Ghost we can be used in miracles. We cannot limit the spirit, we cannot limit years ago to today. We need to know as long as there is a need, God will use an individual, those of us that have the Holy Ghost, is the same spirit Paul had, its the same spirit Peter had, its the same spirit John had as they were boiling him in the pot. We have that! Through your prayer of faith you can speak peace into a situation, you can pray for the blinded eyes and they will open. We can speak to a demon and they will be casted out, we can see the dead raised to life.

I'm glad you brought up James 5:14 because I was going to if no one else did.

Note what it does not say:

Is any sick among you? Call for whoever you want in the church to lay hands on you and anoint you with oil in the name of the Lord.

It specifies the presbyterous or eldership of the assembly. Why? Because in order to become a mature saint, an elder, you have to pass under the five gifts of grace mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 and grow up, so that you may be equipped for the work of the ministry for the edification of the saints, that is, you yourself have been graced by the Lord and have entered into your vocation as apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and/or teacher and need to begin to walk in that calling and reproduce in other saints what was formed in you.

So, no, don't just call for whoever you want to lay hands on you and anoint you in the name of the Lord. Call for the mature men gifted with the grace of the Lord Jesus to heal.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Great thoughts, all. I lean toward the need for MORE of these gifts in operation. We can intellectualize them away or say they're not for us today, or whatever. But God set them in the church and so long as there is a church they're there.... just like apostles, prophets, pastors, etc.

I agree. However, great harm is being done, in my opinion, when false expectations are generated in the hearts of saints by misconstruals of the Scriptures. If a saint has not been endowed with a gift of the Spirit, or a grace gift, and yet are nevertheless told they can and should operate in the gifts of the Spirit or as a grace gift (because of Mark 1:17-18 or John 14:12, or etc.), and they fail because God has not so endowed them, it crushes their faith.

It is better, in my opinion, to teach saints how to rely on the Lord Jesus for the supply of all their needs, and to be led by the Spirit as a son of God, and if they have that reliance and that leading, they will know when they are endowed by God to operate and administer the gifts God eventually does give them.

But otherwise, to just allow them, if you will, to willy-nilly go about hoping to be used and then not be used no matter how much they try, because it's not God's timing or His will for that person, it will leave them heartbroken and discouraged.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

One the one hand, we have the idea that the gifts are lacking because people are not measuring up to high standards. Then on the other hand we have the idea that the gifts are disconnected from and not dependent on any such moral, ethical, or doctrinal standards.

Which seems to me to be a bit of a paradox. If gifts are not dependent on orthodoxy or morality or spirituality (!), then there ought to be no lack at all of charismata in today's church world....

Hence the charismatic movement, where everyone is your personal prophet and shepherd and covering and everyone has a word for you!