Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Where are you getting this 3.5 year period when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies of gentiles? And when did it begin, and end?
Added a word to what? And, since the Revelation was written "for" the seven churches in Asia Minor, how was the whole book beneficial to them? I'm not understanding what exactly your point is. Is the Revelation simply a neat history book, like the Aenead, or Livy's Histories, that we can "glean... certain aspects" from? What does that mean? And what bearing does that have on the discussion here?
Why? I mean, why do you believe that? Upon what basis?
There's that 3.5 year "ravaging and destruction of Jerusalem" thing again. Where is this coming from? Jerusalem was besieged and "ravaged" for about 6 and a half months.
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
(Mat 4:17)
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
(Mar 1:14-15)
Does this mean the kingdom was limited to the first century?
To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
(Deu 32:35-36) Was this limited to the time shortly before, during, and perhaps immediately after the Conquest of Canaan? When did this come to pass?
Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
(Joe 1:15)
To what does this refer? When did Joel prophesy, and when did the Day of the Lord come to pass, seeing as it was "at hand" in his day?
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
(Luk 18:7-8) In the above passage, the word "speedily" is the same word translated "shortly" in Revelation. With that in mind, can you explain how on the one hand God is said to "bear long with them" yet at the same time He is said to "avenge them speedily/shortly"?
How did Christians in Asia Minor understand the Revelation? What was it's immediate significance to them? And, how would you know if you understood it the way they did?
Furthermore, if they did understand the Revelation the same way you do, is there any evidence of that? Are there any surviving writings from the early church - particularly from the area of Asia Minor - that would indicate they had the same understanding of the Apocalypse that you do? Is there any evidence that early Christians interpreted the Revelation as you do, that it strictly had application to first century Christians, especially those who had to deal with the destruction of Jerusalem?
(I am still not seeing exactly how relevant the destruction of Jerusalem was to Christians in Asia Minor, in the sense they needed to know about "fleeing into the wilderness for three and half years", especially considering the attack only lasted about 6 and a half months). |
3.5 years, time, times and half a time, 1260 days is all the same, and we find the Church (woman) fled Jerusalem during the Gentile surrounding of Jerusalem, and according to scripture, she was protected for 3.5 years.
The Book was beneficial to the ones it was addressed to, as it was telling them of what was about to befall that region.
No. Revelation was not a "neat little history book," when John wrote it, but was in fact a neat prophectic book for them to know, the time was at hand.
Why do I believe
Rev 12 was written for the first century? Quite simply, the book is written to them of things that would be fulfilled during that time, the time of the end.
Why would you think it was not for them then, the ones it was addressed to?
Not sure how you derive the Kingdom of God was confined to the first century church, as I never suggested that, however, that is when it did arrive.
As far as, if I understand Revelation as they did, the ones it was written to, I cannot say I understand it fully as they did, but I am trying, but I do not find any credible scripture to suggest they thought it was referring to people or places thousands of miles and thousands of years removed. No. It is simply not there.
So with that fact, the "manchild ministry" is not some super Christian ministry as some try to make it, but was birthed from the woman, with is the church.
There are two women in Revelation. One a harlot, one a virgin. One Old Jerusalem, the other New Jerusalem. One the old Covenant, the other the New Covenant.
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