Rules and Spirit

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

True except I RARELY, if ever, actually see the "training wheels" come off. Instead more and more are usually added.

In my experience, we are taught to follow the pastor to such an extent that we are not even emulating the Bereans at all. In some places not allowed to question anything at all.

Therefore, your average saint is just going to keep walking that treadmill because it's so much easier.

Perhaps pressing-on. I would suppose that it would depend on the pastor.

The "average saint" in America I have discovered is reluctant to swim out into the deeper waters.

Many times the saints want to know things like, "What is your standard about this... what is the standard about that...."

Where there certainly are principles in scripture that as believers we apply in our lives, we probably agree that it is about walking with Him.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by DEAK

Perhaps pressing-on. I would suppose that it would depend on the pastor.

The "average saint" in America I have discovered is reluctant to swim out into the deeper waters.

Many times the saints want to know things like, "What is your standard about this... what is the standard about that...."

Where there certainly are principles in scripture that as believers we apply in our lives, we probably agree that it is about walking with Him.

I do agree. It all depends on the pastor. But, is the average saint "reluctant" because the leadership doesn't encourage it?

We are doing an open Bible study question/answer session once a week at our church. I think it is going to be very productive as we've covered some really good topics and found a balance and gentleness in the Word.

It's a very relaxed setting. I would encourage any church to try it.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I do agree. It all depends on the pastor. But, is the average saint "reluctant" because the leadership doesn't encourage it?

We are doing an open Bible study question/answer session once a week at our church. I think it is going to be very productive as we've covered some really good topics and found a balance and gentleness in the Word.

It's a very relaxed setting. I would encourage any church to try it.

I would think that for the average saint to be reluctant because the leadership doesn't encourage it to be a good thing.

Sometimes I hate how slowly things change. Sometimes, however, it is a healthy thing for changes to move slowly. I would suppose it depends on the change and the individuals....

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by DEAK

I would think that for the average saint to be reluctant because the leadership doesn't encourage it to be a good thing.

Sometimes I hate how slowly things change. Sometimes, however, it is a healthy thing for changes to move slowly. I would suppose it depends on the change and the individuals....

I agree. Slow is sometimes frustrating.

I don't quite understand your first sentence. Could you come again on that? Thanks.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

True except I RARELY, if ever, actually see the "training wheels" come off. Instead more and more are usually added.

VERY good point.

[mfblume]

It really is a sad state when for decades of church attendance people still know hardly anything at all about Spirit leading. Imagine what God feels like having His Spirit in us and unable to work very much in us due to such states of being. Some live their entire Spirit filled lives without ever learning to walk after that Spirit.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It really is a sad state when for decades of church attendance people still know hardly anything at all about Spirit leading. Imagine what God feels like having His Spirit in us and unable to work very much in us due to such states of being. Some live their entire Spirit filled lives without ever learning to walk after that Spirit.

Oh I have searched so diligently this morning and I can't find it.

I will keep searching.

But your statement above reminds me of a quote that I saw the other day.

It makes this basic point....

"Men will not find further truth so long as their current vocation is reliant upon their current understanding."

Many leaders gripe about their flock and how they don't think for themselves and have to be told such minute details but... truth be told... such a mindset is their bread & butter and those who think for themselves are quickly marked as rebellious in many cases and won't be tolerated for long.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Oh I have searched so diligently this morning and I can't find it.

I will keep searching.

But your statement above reminds me of a quote that I saw the other day.

It makes this basic point....

"Men will not find further truth so long as their current vocation is reliant upon their current understanding."

Many leaders gripe about their flock and how they don't think for themselves and have to be told such minute details but... truth be told... such a mindset is their bread & butter and those who think for themselves are quickly marked as rebellious in many cases and won't be tolerated for long.

Absolutely true, DFT. Excellent post.

SOmetimes, we pastors don't really know what we want.

I think that we really want people who won't question us, will do what they're supposed to do, not call us in the middle of a golf round, pay their tithes every week, go visit each other in the hospital, bring new people to church, and come to church every night during a revival.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Absolutely true, DFT. Excellent post.

SOmetimes, we pastors don't really know what we want.

I think that we really want people who won't question us, will do what they're supposed to do, not call us in the middle of a golf round, pay their tithes every week, go visit each other in the hospital, bring new people to church, and come to church every night during a revival.

LOL...

Is it not human nature for us to want the best of all worlds? I would venture to say that we are all guilty of that.

I'm not a troublemaker. I currently attend a church and work very hard. I involve myself in everything in which I have a talent to offer.

But I LOVE to study the word. And for a decade now I have remained silent on the things I believe and study. I have kept myself from good, open, honest discussion of the word that is outside the pastors comfort zone. (not at first... I didn't realize that such a stir could be made for simply discussing things... I have learned better now and walk a wiser path)

If I discussed things with church people as openly as I discuss them here I would probably be hated by the pastor...LOL

Sometimes I wonder if I will ever find a place... an environment... where I can discuss the word freely. A place where I can let the fire that is in my bones burn with all it's ability.

I have found, through these forums, that iron does indeed sharpen iron and open discussion ESPECIALLY with those who disagree with you offers opportunity for growth and further understanding.

It is easy for me to say these things because, at the end of the day, I don't have to deal with the problems.... but, maybe even for good reason, it seems that most pastors keep their people at a certain level of studious numbness.

The word says that God is not the author of confusion. It never said there wouldn't be confusion... it just said that God isn't the author.

When open study takes place there is sometimes confusion among people who have held traditions for so long... but when a house is cleaned that hasn't been cleaned in a while dust is stirred up.

Some mark the discussion as the source of confusion when, IMO, it is the old unfounded "truths" that are kicking up the dust and making everyone wheeze.

Anyway... I ramble... I want to express my appreciation for your open and honest commentary. I am always humbled by a man who has it within himself to be honest and open.

I pray God's leading and blessing on all of your work in His fabulous kingdom.