Firearms Refresher Course

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Again, we are NOT talking about rendering evil for evil, that's repayment. That's vengeance. We are talking about self defense and protecting lives. You are arguing something totally different from what the others here are.

Did you read the first post? You are WAY off what has been said here. Brother Strange, for one, has many times said he supports a Christian killing an enemy in war. There has also been support spoken in favor of using a gun against a human being that is deemed dangerous. Prax, you are not reading the posts. THIS is what is said in the VERY OPENING POST of this thread.

Regardless what term you use (which keeps changing), it is still killing another soul in favor of protecting your own blood-bought skin. And THAT is foreign to Jesus' commands.

As I said, I await your scriptures....

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Did you read the first post? You are WAY off what has been said here. Brother Strange, for one, has many times said he supports a Christian killing an enemy in war.

That does not necessarily fit the definition of vengeance or retribution, unless the person is intentionally doing this for some sort of revenge for a previous act.

There has also been support spoken in favor of using a gun against a human being that is deemed dangerous. Prax, you are not reading the posts. THIS is what is said in the VERY OPENING POST of this thread.

Again that does not fit the definition of vengeance or retribution.

Regardless what term you use (which keeps changing), it is still killing another soul in favor of protecting your own blood-bought skin. And THAT is foreign to Jesus' commands.

These words I did not come up with. I found them in yours and EBs posts or verses quoted. Vengeance, retribution etc etc. Those all have specific meanings that refer to acts AFTER the fact for revenge or for punishment. They are NOT for the purpose of preventing an act or protecting life or property. Vengeance IS NOT by definition the act of killing another soul in favor of protecing your own skin. Nor is it the act of killing another soul in favor or protecting some other innocent life. Are you against the death penalty? Are you against imprisonment? If you see a man beating your neighbor to a pulp and the man is not stopping so that you are led to believe his life is in danger, and you have the chance to physically stop that man, is stopping him against the bible? Is that what you are saying? And are you actually saying that is vengeance or retribution???

As I said, I await your scriptures...

Since Im not making a biblical doctrine I don't need scriptures nor does a lack of scriptures prove anything unless you want to toss out yoru PC and stop using a toilet...because there is no specific bible for that. It's the person that makes the assertion that has to prove it and it's your assertion that the bible forbids self defense and the protection of family and friends right? Sorry, Im not gonna waste time trying to find a verse I don't need, particularly when it works to your convenience the OT is invalid or valid depending on what you want to prove lol.

Again an argument from silence is not a valid argument

[TK Burk]

This would be laughable if you were not serious.

Prax, regardless what term you use, it is still taking another man's life. I am not sure how you could get around YOUR terms in reference to war, but somehow in your mind you do.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Since Im not making a biblical doctrine I don't need scriptures nor does a lack of scriptures prove anything unless you want to toss out yoru PC and stop using a toilet...because there is no specific bible for that. It's the person that makes the assertion that has to prove it and it's your assertion that the bible forbids self defense and the protection of family and friends right? Sorry, Im not gonna waste time trying to find a verse I don't need, particularly when it works to your convenience the OT is invalid or valid depending on what you want to prove lol.

So there we have it. I list many scriptures and Prax says he does NOT need any Word. I guess he does as he wishes.

Prax you really cannot see the difference between a PC, a toilet, and killing a human being? Really??

God bless you Prax. I hope all goes well with you. I really have a hard time discussing the Bible with someone who says he does not need it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Prax, no one takes Wikipedia as a serious source.

Wikipedia quotes the sources and gives referrences, Refute the references.

How about the Britannica?

Oh brother.

Here is what they say:

For sometime before the Christian era, the Essenes, a Jewish sect in Palestine, preached nonviolence. The Roman Empire established a period of tranquillity known as the Pax Romana, but peace was kept by a military structure and applied only to the Roman world.

And? What does the Britannica give as it's historical source for this information? If you think what they taught was the truth...well I hope you are not married

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (josephus)
"The Essenes," he says, "reject pleasures as vice. They despise marriage though they do not absolutely repudiate it, but are suspicious of women. They despise riches and have all things in common. They think oil a defilement. They wear white garments.

Like the apostles they took nothing with them when they traveled save weapons for defense against robbers, just as the apostles had at the time of the Last Supper two swords with which they had likely provided themselves for similar reasons.

Again, you can't just pick and choose whatever supports your view or just does not mention someone elses. In this case the EB either does not mention what Josephus said there or you did not quote it

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

So there we have it. I list many scriptures and Prax says he does NOT need any Word. I guess he does as he wishes.

Ok well now you are just being dishonest. I never said I can do as I wish. The bible says not to lie or steal. The bible does NOT say NOT to protect innocent lives or defend yourself. It does say not to do murder and I asked before about this subject but you all ignored it and said the OT was not relevant.

Prax you really cannot see the difference between a PC, a toilet, and killing a human being? Really??

if your argument is that you can't do something unless the bible says you can specifically, then you need to stop using a toilet and the PC and a host of other things. BTW I never said there wasn't a difference between them. That's not even the issue. The issue is you are making a classic argument from silence when it's convenient for you to make and ignoring it when it's not convenient for you to make. That is intellectual dishonesty

God bless you Prax. I hope all goes well with you. I really have a hard time discussing the Bible with someone who says he does not need it.

Again, resorting to intellectual dishonesty...I don't know who you expect that to convince. At this point this sort of dialog is just a waste of time.

[TK Burk]

Hey, I did not say that against using the Bible for evidence, you did.

Okay, so prove me wrong. List your scriptures Prax.

[Praxeas]

Do you guys realize there is a difference between taking a life and murder? The word for kill when it says "You shall not kill" means murder

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'

In the bible righteous people killed all the time and were righteous. But Murder was NOT allowed. When they killed their enemies that was not murder, otherwise Samuel and a host of other OT saints were all murderers and yet never condemned for it.

David was never condemned for killing, but when he had Bathshebas husband murdered then he was judged.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Hey, I did not say that against using the Bible for evidence, you did.

Okay, so prove me wrong. List your scriptures Prax.

list scriptures that do what?

Maybe you misunderstand what I am saying. Im not saying "we should teach Christians they should own a gun for protection because the bible says so"....

What I have been saying is that when YOU say the bible says it's WRONG to protect someones life with a gun that you have no scriptures for that.

Do you have scriptures against vengeance? yes, against retribution? yes. Against a "pay back" mentality? Yes. Against a Christian using a gun to protect his family from harm or death? No. you don't.

The next thing I am pointing out is that IF something is wrong simply because the bible does not mention it being right, then everyone here is sinning all the time, even by being on the internet. But that is a logical fallacy called an argument from silence.

I think you realize that too, but are just arguing for the sake of having an argument.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Do you guys realize there is a difference between taking a life and murder? The word for kill when it says "You shall not kill" means murder

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'

In the bible righteous people killed all the time and were righteous. But Murder was NOT allowed. When they killed their enemies that was not murder, otherwise Samuel and a host of other OT saints were all murderers and yet never condemned for it.

David was never condemned for killing, but when he had Bathshebas husband murdered then he was judged.

Prax,

First, Matthew 5:21 speaks of a man intentionally slaying another man. You have attested to this by posting a translation that uses "murder" in place of the KJV's "kill." I learned when I first came into Pentecost that if you wanted to learn Truth, you had to be willing to "read a little bit further." That simple lesson has taught me a lot over the many years. Okay, let's do that with your Matthew 5 passage. Look what it says in the next verse:

Matthew 5:22
(22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Jesus is speaking about how each man should value another. He is saying it is more than just killing them dead, it is also not respecting their person. That is why He used “raca.” That term means “silly man.” This respect goes with what else He said in this dissertation. We find this when we read a little bit further down from in Matthew 5.

Matthew 5:38-39
(38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
(39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

See, there it is again. We are NOT to resist evil with evil.

Prax, your lone Matthew 5:21 passage says nothing against the numerous scriptures I already listed. Only one passage that is out of context is NOT helping your cause at all. It only adds to what I have already said.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

list scriptures that do what?

Do you have scriptures against vengeance? yes, against retribution? yes. Against a "pay back" mentality? Yes. Against a Christian using a gun to protect his family from harm or death? No. you don't.

I think you realize that too, but are just arguing for the sake of having an argument.

To do what? How about listing scriptures to determine God's Will?

I don't have any scriptures? Really? Did you forget all these I already listed for you?

• But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Matthew 5:44)
• But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, (Luke 6:27)
• But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. (Luke 6:35)
• But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:39)
• But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. (1 Timothy 6:11)
• Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (Hebrews 12:14)
• Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; (1 Peter 3:11-14)
• Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:19-24)
• Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:19-21)
• Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:31-32)
• Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: (Luke 6:37)
• And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. (Luke 12:22)
• Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (Matthew 26:52)
• Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
• Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. (1 Peter 3:9)
• Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. (Romans 12:17)
• See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. (1 Thessalonians 5:15)

Prax, no I do not realize what you are saying because you have not shown anything about what God says. Jesus' voice is the voice we are to listen to. Again, where are your scriptures the show Jesus or His apostles taught what you believe?