Pastors move to withhold/lessen SFC offerings in protest of NAYC

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

That would be fine, and if I am incorrect then I will retract my assertion there. However I can say that I obtained this information from a missionary who has been on the field for nearly 3 decades and was recently on deputation (sp?).

Well perhaps things have changed in the last few years but I know that when we were raising budgets we raised twice as much as we needed, or at least that was the goal. Didn't always happen for more than one reason but figures were arrived at as far as how much it would cost a family to live in a particular country and then that figure was doubled, not tripled.

I'm really looking forward to meeting missionary friends and we'll get a chance to hash this all over I'm sure. Then I can let you know what the facts really are.

Could be you're right and I'm wrong. There's always the possibilty I guess although I feel quite confident it's the other way around.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Felicity

No, they don't raise 3 times what they need. They raise 2x what they need.

I'm checking your figures out here when I get to talk to missionary friends and FMD personnel while at GC. I really think your numbers are inaccurate.

With the slowdown in the economy they may need more now....

And I can see inflation suddenly eroding a dollar given less 4-6 % admin and so on and so on becoming 66 cents on the field.

Ever price something on a European website? Say, ever come to the states and see how many CDN$$ compare to US$$ on a given day?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

With the slowdown in the economy they may need more now....

And I can see inflation suddenly eroding a dollar given less 4-6 % admin and so on and so on becoming 66 cents on the field.

Ever price something on a European website? Say, ever come to the states and see how many CDN$$ compare to US$$ on a given day?

Well, if this is the case and these missionaries are needing to raise 3x figures, some of them might never make it. Have any idea how much it takes to live in some of these countries??

How long do you think it might take a missionary traveling on deputation today with fewer services and other dynamics that exist to raise $36,000??

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Well, if this is the case and these missionaries are needing to raise 3x figures, some of them might never make it. Have any idea how much it takes to live in some of these countries??

How long do you think it might take a missionary traveling on deputation today with fewer services and other dynamics that exist to raise $36,000??

A million and one reasons we need to think of Lincoln and Hamilton at church instead of Washington- errr $5 or $20 instead of $1.

And this is not to despair at those in HQ. This is a fact of the last days.

The postings here are amazing. I can see the same person screaming at a judge one day for doing 26 in a school zone too...

Withholding SFC would directly HURT missionaries. This is not to say those who made the bad choices for NAYC need to go free either.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

May I request someone to show me how anyone in Hazelwood, has biblical spiritual authority over another preacher, unless it's their own pastor who is in HQ? Organizational heirarchy does not equate to spiritual authority. Many of the people who get promoted to district and national offices, are not there because of their anointing, or their success in real God called ministry, but because of their administration and organizational abilities. I would even dare say that some of the people who are appointed and voted into district and national offices are done so simply because of who they are, who they know, or their political saavy. Either way, my assertion still stands: "business administrators in Hazelwood" have no real biblical or spiritual authority over another God-called preacher who is doing the will and work of God.

Does this have some connection to people holding back funds? Is it a form of justification for not cooperating with those you are in fellowship with and supposed to be standing together with?

Can a dissenting voice not be heard by speaking up or writing a letter?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

May I request someone to show me how anyone in Hazelwood, has biblical spiritual authority over another preacher, unless it's their own pastor who is in HQ? Organizational heirarchy does not equate to spiritual authority.

Can you show me how anyone "in Hazelwood" even exercises "spiritual authority over another preacher...?" All "authority over another preacher" exists at the District level, except where the General Conference votes in something like the Affirmation Statement. In that case the "spiritual authority" is whoever shows up at GC and votes. "Hazelwood" exists for purely administrative purposes, in so far as authority is concerned. Your statement seems to be attacking something that doesn't even exist.

A UPC minister can appeal some things from his/her district up through the Judicial Procedure - but that's not a case of Hazelwood dictating, rather a case where a lowly preacher is asking officials to intervene and mediate a situation on his/her behalf. And even then, those officials may not even have a WEC position. A friend of mine serves as a Regional JP guy- when he was elected to that position he held no other office than pastor of a local church. The authority that you seem to fear is really in the hands of thousands all across North America, not a select few in Hazelwood.

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Many of the people who get promoted to district and national offices, are not there because of their anointing, or their success in real God called ministry, but because of their administration and organizational abilities. I would even dare say that some of the people who are appointed and voted into district and national offices are done so simply because of who they are, who they know, or their political saavy.

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Did you loose a vote? I served on a national board and my Pentecostal pedigree is absolutely zilch. Most of the guys I served with failed to have the "proper" last names as well.

When I was hired to work at WEC I was selected over another applicant who was a close family member of one of the highest ranking officials. In fact, I may have gotten the job just so no one could cry "nepotism." How fair is that to the other guy? He felt a calling I'm sure. He probably would have done a better job then I did because he knew the culture better and had connections I could only dream of. But they chose me. He got dissed because of his name. But no hard feelings, we're friends to this day.

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Either way, my assertion still stands: "business administrators in Hazelwood" have no real biblical or spiritual authority over another God-called preacher who is doing the will and work of God.

And my assertion still stands. No "business administrators in Hazelwood" even attempt to exercise "real biblical or spiritual authority over another God-called preacher who is doing the will and work of God." Such entities simply don't exist in the real world. The only excepttion that even comes close is that the General Board approves and endorses the Foreign Missionaries. But those are the DS from across North America and not "business administrators in Hazelwood."

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

With the slowdown in the economy they may need more now....

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

And I can see inflation suddenly eroding a dollar given less 4-6 % admin and so on and so on becoming 66 cents on the field.

Ever price something on a European website? Say, ever come to the states and see how many CDN$$ compare to US$$ on a given day?

That might be where BobDylan is getting his numbers. He may be thinking that because a missionary is told to raise 2x's their anticipated budget (or maybe 3x's) that "all that extra money" goes into the pockets of the fat cats in Hazelwood.

Fact of the matter is, "all that extra money" (the double or tripling of the anticipated budget) mostly fails to materialize. Many churches are unable to keep up with their PIMs and the value of the dollar fluctuates incredibly against many 3rd world currencies. A missionary could move several months’ worth of funds into the local country only to have the currency devalued or face an inflation rate of 200-300%.

Such exigencies are real, but to then accuse people you don't even know of "swallowing up" foreign mission funds... People who say these things and those who believe these things have probably never hosted a foreign missionary themselves. Let the missionaries speak for themselves on these issues - if they can even find the time.

[tv1a]

Dylan's post (#8) suggests this generation doesn't know God. This generation is waiting for the previous generation to die off (metaphorically speaking) so they can inherit the promise land. Although there are a few Joshuas and Calebs the majority of the previous generation is in a wilderness mode and doesn't have a clue. There is a generation ready to possess the land.

If anyone remembers, I was lamblasted because I commented nayc is 5-6 years behind cultural relevance. I was basically accused of having a bad attitude. Who has the bad attitude now? Hats off to organizers for attempting to bridge the gap.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by tv1a

Dylan's post (#8) suggests this generation doesn't know God. This generation is waiting for the previous generation to die off (metaphorically speaking) so they can inherit the promise land. Although there are a few Joshuas and Calebs the majority of the previous generation is in a wilderness mode and doesn't have a clue. There is a generation ready to possess the land.

If anyone remembers, I was lamblasted because I commented nayc is 5-6 years behind cultural relevance. Hats off to organizers for attempting to bridge the gap.

Is "lamblasted" like a lamb chop? All kidding aside, I agree with you.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by pelathais

When I was hired to work at WEC I was selected over another applicant who was a close family member of one of the highest ranking officials. In fact, I may have gotten the job just so no one could cry "nepotism." How fair is that to the other guy? He felt a calling I'm sure. He probably would have done a better job then I did because he knew the culture better and had connections I could only dream of. But they chose me. He got dissed because of his name. But no hard feelings, we're friends to this day.

Do you still have that same tie you wore every day?

Who took the job after you- the person you bumped?