Ancient Monarchians and Trinitarians

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

Paulicians were not Oneness according to history. Someone by the name TheLayman put wikki back to what it was originally. I've seen him in action on CARM. If this is the same guy!

PAULICIANS, a dualistic sect of the Orient, whose name was derived from their respect for the apostle Paul, rather than from their third leader, the Armenian Paul, as Photius and Petrus Siculus affirm.

http://www.medievalchurch.org.uk/h_paul.php

I read the portion of the link on their doctrine.I'm skeptical that history has misrepresented them.

Anyway the article you reference doesn't mention "The Key of Truth" that BD has been speaking of and which you haven't addressed. :

My statement was the the Paulicians were oneness.... there may have been some fringe elements that leaned toward a twoness, but it cannot be substantiated from their most notable document, "The Key of Truth". In fact, Coneybear, who translated the document in the late 1800's, said "I see no evidence of any of the heresies in their writings"...

The book, The Key of Truth, can be purchase at Amazon for $26.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I read the portion of the link on their doctrine.I'm skeptical that history has misrepresented them.

Anyway the article you reference doesn't mention "The Key of Truth" that BD has been speaking of and which you haven't addressed. :

The book, The Key of Truth, can be purchase at Amazon for $26.

Skeptical because it disagree with something you believe? The Key of Truth is not the only historical evidence out there.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

Skeptical because it disagree with something you believe? The Key of Truth is not the only historical evidence out there.

Where is your church in history? Did it get lost as well? Where is the church that preached saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone? Did it go underground to hide from Roman Catholic persecution?

Oneness is misrepresented as it is now in the present time why would I expect anything different over 1000 years ago esp when "orthodoxy" was enforced by the state?

I would LOVE to read the stuff written by Praxeas, Sabellius, etc. What happened to their writings?

I read a number of articles on the Paulinians today. It was funny how each author tried to prove they, the Paulinians, belonged to their persuasion. One was a baptist who said the Paulinians believed in the Trinity. Two other writers were non Trinitarian and said the Paulinians denied the Trinity and baptized in Jesus name. All three writers said the Paulinians were not dualist. It's peaked my interest enough to buy the book and find out for myself.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

Paulicians were not Oneness according to history. Someone by the name TheLayman put wikki back to what it was originally. I've seen him in action on CARM. If this is the same guy!

How are you able to find out who edited the text in Wiki? Is there a log at Wiki that one can look at to see who added or deleted material?

Originally Posted by mizpeh

How are you able to find out who edited the text in Wiki? Is there a log at Wiki that one can look at to see who added or deleted material?

I think the wikki Moderator put it back to where it was originally. I don't think "TheLayman" is the same person I've seen on CARM. His work was to sloppy.

However, I went to a few book stores today just to find information about the Paulicians. So far all the books say the same thing. I plan on going to the city library tomorrow to check there. So far all the sources say that this sect were dualist, they distinguished between two gods, one good and the other evil, the latter being the ruler of the material world. I challenge anyone else to also go and check so not to take my word only.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

I think the wikki Moderator put it back to where it was originally. I don't think "TheLayman" is the same person I've seen on CARM. His work was to sloppy.

However, I went to a few book stores today just to find information about the Paulicians. So far all the books say the same thing. I plan on going to the city library tomorrow to check there. So far all the sources say that this sect were dualist, they distinguished between two gods, one good and the other evil, the latter being the ruler of the material world. I challenge anyone else to also go and check so not to take my word only.

I've already looked online. There's a variety of opinions. Why don't you read what Paulicians say about themselves in their own writings instead of possible misrepresentations of others?

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I've already looked online. There's a variety of opinions. Why don't you read what Paulicians say about themselves in their own writings instead of possible misrepresentations of others?

I sense that it upsets you that all sources don't agree with what you want them to say. The facts are there, you can't accept them or not. I only offer what I find in the many different studies from many different authors. The Nelson's Dictionary of Christianity does mention the "The Key of Truth." It states, "They influenced some Radical Reformers in the sixteenth century and a copy of their doctrinal manual, The Key of Truth, was circulating in Russian Armenia in the nineteenth century.

I plan on going to the library today and checking more sources. I'm afraid that the verdict will remain the same. But, if I do find anything else I will post it.

Originally Posted by BobDylan

1. Where was the fully developed doctrine of the trinity referenced in any writing in the first three centuries of the church?

2. When, where, and by whom was the doctrine of the trinity established as the official dogma of the "real" church?

3. Who and where was the real church between the years of 400AD to 1500AD? Was it the Roman Catholics? The Greek Orthadox? African Orthadox?

According to history, the worldwide church was given the name “the Catholic Church” in the second century, and it remained this until after the Reformations starting in 1517.

Around the year A.D. 107, a bishop, St. Ignatius of Antioch in the Near East, was arrested, brought to Rome by armed guards and eventually martyred there in the arena. In a farewell letter which this early bishop and martyr wrote to his fellow Christians in Smyrna (today Izmir in modern Turkey), he made the first written mention in history of "the Catholic Church." He wrote, "Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2). Thus, the second century of Christianity had scarcely begun when the name of the Catholic Church was already in use.

The medieval period existed from A.D. 590-1517 when the Reformation began. The period from 500-1500 is frequently called the Dark Ages because of the ecclesiastical corruption. It was, in fact, this corruption that sparked the Protestant Reformation under Martin Luther. Roman Catholic doctrine developed considerably during the medieval period: purgatory in 593; prayer to Mary, saints, and angels in 600; kissing the pope’s foot in 709; canonization of dead saints in 995; celibacy of the priesthood in 1079; the rosary in 1090; transubstantiation and confessing sins to a priest in 1215; and the seven sacraments in 1439. A number of controversies confronted the medieval church. The iconoclastic controversy emerged in which the use of images in worship became an integral part of the Western church. The filioque controversy (did the Father alone or the Father and the Son send the Spirit) split the Eastern and Western church. The predestination controversy resulted in rejection of Gottschalk’s predestination view. The eucharist controversy led to the doctrine of transubstantiation. Controversial views over the atonement aso emerged. The medieval period developed scholasticism, which trained scholars to defend the faith from a rational viewpoint. One scholastic, Thomas Aquinas, became prominent in the formulation of Catholic doctrine. Other doctrinal views emerged as the Roman Catholic church increasing moved away fro Augustinian doctrine. Man was viewed as cooperating with God both in salvation and sanctification. Works became an important part in salvation and sanctification, especially with the adoption of the seven sacraments. The authority of the papacy also emerged during this time, the pope being termed “vicar of Christ.” Submission to the pope was essential in both religious and political matters. Martin Luther, a Roman Catholic priest, sparked the Reformation when he nailed the ninety-five theses opposing the Catholic church on the church door at Wittenberg, Germany, on October 31,1517. Luther stresses a return to the Scriptures as ultimate authority in the believer’s life. This marked a return to a study the Scriptures, particularly with the publication of the Greek New Testament by Erasmus. (The Moody handbook of Theology pg 404,405 Introduction of Historical Theology).


The English churches from the Anglican Reformation. The list of churches for this study is are follows: Methodist Episcopal Church - Wesleyan Holiness doctrine (John Wesley) Holiness Movement - Church of the Nazarene (1895) Pentecostal Movement (1901) - Assemblies of God (1914) - Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (1913-1916) - United Pentecostal Church International (1945).


The church doctrine was a progressive doctrine, depending on the events surrounding the time period. First we need to understand the purpose of the Church. Two overriding purposes of the Church can be delineated: gathered, ministering to the body, and scattered, ministering to the world. It is important to distinguish these two purposes. On one hand, the Church gathers as a body of believers wherein believers minister to one another; on the other hand, the Church is to minister to both believers and unbelievers. This is important because Jesus said, I WILL build My Church. In order for this to be fulfilled there has to be some evidence that this took place in history.

The Nicene Creed was in response to the Arian controversy.

The Nicene Creed as approved by the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381)

The Council of Sardica Canon V (A.D. 343)

The Definition of Chalcedon (A.D. 451)

Canons of the Council of Orange (A.D. 529)

Quicumque vult (Athanasian Creed) (ca. A.D. 500)

Anathemas of the Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 533)

Creeds and Statements - from the Period after A.D. 600

Later Creeds:

Eleventh Council of Toledo (675 AD)

The Statement of Faith of the Third Council of Constantinople - (681 AD, Sixth Ecumenical)
The Image Controversy (the Iconoclasts)

The Synod of Constantinople (Hiera, 753 AD)

Council of Nicaea (7th Ecumenical,787 AD)

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Believer

It is because all the information that is found from non-bias historical stand point, points to the fact they were dualist, not Oneness nor Trinitarian.

What non-biased histories are you reading? Are you reading original and objective research, or are you reading opinions based on other's biased research? Ancient Monarchian Christians, by William Chalfant, is a tremendous resource that examined the original claims and comes to a different "non-biased" conclusion. I challenge you to examine the Key of Truth (statement of faith for the Paulician) and find dualism there. Again, Coneybear said he found NO EVIDENCE of any of the heresies in the Paulician's own statement of faith. Who are you going to believe? Whay the Paulicians said about themselves, or what their detractors and accusers (who murdered over 100,000 of them) said about them? I think I would beleive what I heard them say about themselves, rather than the murderous system that persecuted, tortured, and lied about them. Yes, their detractors accused them of being dualist, but what did they say about themselves.

Originally Posted by Believer

They were considered heretics by the Church, the Oneness church would consider them today. it’s a no brainier.

They were considered heretics by the Roman Catholic church. WE (oneness) were considered heretics by the Roman Catholic church. I think WE (oneness) have alot more in common with the Paulicians that we do the [Roman Catholic] "church" that accused them of heresy. I know at least two oneness studenst of history, both PhD.s, that believe the Paulicians were oneness.

Originally Posted by Believer

You would be hard pressed to prove that Irenaeus was a dualist...seriously!

YOU would be hard pressed to prove that Iraneaus was a trinitarian! You would also be hardpressed to prove that Polycarp, Clement of Rome (95AD), and Ignatius were anything BUT monarchian!

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Believer

According to history, the worldwide church was given the name “the Catholic Church” in the second century, and it remained this until after the Reformations starting in 1517.

Around the year A.D. 107, a bishop, St. Ignatius of Antioch in the Near East, was arrested, brought to Rome by armed guards and eventually martyred there in the arena. In a farewell letter which this early bishop and martyr wrote to his fellow Christians in Smyrna (today Izmir in modern Turkey), he made the first written mention in history of "the Catholic Church." He wrote, "Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2). Thus, the second century of Christianity had scarcely begun when the name of the Catholic Church was already in use.

The medieval period existed from A.D. 590-1517 when the Reformation began. The period from 500-1500 is frequently called the Dark Ages because of the ecclesiastical corruption. It was, in fact, this corruption that sparked the Protestant Reformation under Martin Luther. Roman Catholic doctrine developed considerably during the medieval period: purgatory in 593; prayer to Mary, saints, and angels in 600; kissing the pope’s foot in 709; canonization of dead saints in 995; celibacy of the priesthood in 1079; the rosary in 1090; transubstantiation and confessing sins to a priest in 1215; and the seven sacraments in 1439. A number of controversies confronted the medieval church. The iconoclastic controversy emerged in which the use of images in worship became an integral part of the Western church. The filioque controversy (did the Father alone or the Father and the Son send the Spirit) split the Eastern and Western church. The predestination controversy resulted in rejection of Gottschalk’s predestination view. The eucharist controversy led to the doctrine of transubstantiation. Controversial views over the atonement aso emerged. The medieval period developed scholasticism, which trained scholars to defend the faith from a rational viewpoint. One scholastic, Thomas Aquinas, became prominent in the formulation of Catholic doctrine. Other doctrinal views emerged as the Roman Catholic church increasing moved away fro Augustinian doctrine. Man was viewed as cooperating with God both in salvation and sanctification. Works became an important part in salvation and sanctification, especially with the adoption of the seven sacraments. The authority of the papacy also emerged during this time, the pope being termed “vicar of Christ.” Submission to the pope was essential in both religious and political matters. Martin Luther, a Roman Catholic priest, sparked the Reformation when he nailed the ninety-five theses opposing the Catholic church on the church door at Wittenberg, Germany, on October 31,1517. Luther stresses a return to the Scriptures as ultimate authority in the believer’s life. This marked a return to a study the Scriptures, particularly with the publication of the Greek New Testament by Erasmus. (The Moody handbook of Theology pg 404,405 Introduction of Historical Theology).


The English churches from the Anglican Reformation. The list of churches for this study is are follows: Methodist Episcopal Church - Wesleyan Holiness doctrine (John Wesley) Holiness Movement - Church of the Nazarene (1895) Pentecostal Movement (1901) - Assemblies of God (1914) - Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (1913-1916) - United Pentecostal Church International (1945).


The church doctrine was a progressive doctrine, depending on the events surrounding the time period. First we need to understand the purpose of the Church. Two overriding purposes of the Church can be delineated: gathered, ministering to the body, and scattered, ministering to the world. It is important to distinguish these two purposes. On one hand, the Church gathers as a body of believers wherein believers minister to one another; on the other hand, the Church is to minister to both believers and unbelievers. This is important because Jesus said, I WILL build My Church. In order for this to be fulfilled there has to be some evidence that this took place in history.

The Nicene Creed was in response to the Arian controversy.

The Nicene Creed as approved by the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381)

The Council of Sardica Canon V (A.D. 343)

The Definition of Chalcedon (A.D. 451)

Canons of the Council of Orange (A.D. 529)

Quicumque vult (Athanasian Creed) (ca. A.D. 500)

Anathemas of the Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 533)

Creeds and Statements - from the Period after A.D. 600

Later Creeds:

Eleventh Council of Toledo (675 AD)

The Statement of Faith of the Third Council of Constantinople - (681 AD, Sixth Ecumenical)
The Image Controversy (the Iconoclasts)

The Synod of Constantinople (Hiera, 753 AD)

Council of Nicaea (7th Ecumenical,787 AD)

This doesn't answer a single question that I asked.... are you attempting a snow job? Trying to avoid answering directly? What I was in school, when I answered a question, they taught us to use part of the question in an answer.. here let me give you an example:

1. The fully developed doctrine of the trinity was referenced in these early church writing from the first two centuries... (writing a., writing b. and writing c.)...

2. The doctrine of the trinity was established as the official dogma of the "real" church (by that time the Roman Catholic chruch) by the Council of Constantinope in 381 AD....

3. Between the years of 400AD to 1500AD the real believers were called _________ and were located ________ (etc. etc. etc.)

I don't see why it is so hard to simply answer the quesiton, instead of pulling some selection from a historical writing somewhere and pasting it into the post. What do YOU believe about these questions. Where were the true believers? Where did Polycarp, Bishop Clement of Rome (95AD), or Ignatius refer to a fully developed trinity? Or where did they even reference a "primative" trinity concept? When was the trinity officially established as the universal church doctrine?


It's really prety simple to answer these questions....