Do they have the right to permit or forbid something beyond or short of what is Biblical in principle?
In other words, does a pastor by name's sake have a right to run it his own way or does he have a responsibility to run it God's way?
I could start organization X and call myself a Pastor, because I felt called you know, does this give me scriptural right to run my followers any way I want?
Or worse, any way anti-Christ traditions have always taught me?
Sorry Barb, I'm not trying to put you personally on the spot, but do you see where this kind of thing gets the perpetuating power of man's traditions?
I believe that the Apostles and early church did things radically different than the way 'the church' has learned to do things from systems contrary.
Is the UPCi and the like not a protestant system with a oneness Acts 2:38 band-aid? There is very little difference otherwise. At some point one must do their history to find out why. Where did the protestant system get its roots? It all stems from a harlot that is calling her daughters home.
Hopefully, that which makes this movement different will help us resist the call....no matter the cost.
Theo, you are not putting me on the spot and I hope I can adequately express what I am feeling...
I am sure there are men and women with personal agendas, that being of setting up their own kingdom. It is those folk whom I believe would fit your description of running it their own way.
No, when I speak of forbid and permit, I am speaking of having to discipline because of sin in the camp...not those who make up the rules as they go along.
I am convinced that restoration is God's plan and perfect will. Anyone who would discipline because they think they can is without a clear understanding of the grace of God.
The sitting down or reprimanding of a Saint should be for the healing and restoration of the erring soul...not punishment for punishment sake.
As I see it, this goes beyond man's tradition and is following Scripture leading.
Theo, you are not putting me on the spot and I hope I can adequately express what I am feeling...
I am sure there are men and women with personal agendas, that being of setting up their own kingdom. It is those folk whom I believe would fit your description of running it their own way.
No, when I speak of forbid and permit, I am speaking of having to discipline because of sin in the camp...not those who make up the rules as they go along.
I am convinced that restoration is God's plan and perfect will. Anyone who would discipline because they think they can is without a clear understanding of the grace of God.
The sitting down or reprimanding of a Saint should be for the healing and restoration of the erring soul...not punishment for punishment sake.
As I see it, this goes beyond man's tradition and is following Scripture leading.
Ah, thanks Barb. The topic of church discipline is another messy one. Certainly there is presidence..no question. From all I've seen there hasn't been enough where and when it was needed and too much when and where it was not.
That is easy to say as it is such a broad and simple stroke, but I'm sure we could start a tread on that alone.
I have a question I would like to throw out for discussion. Most of you know the conventional path to ministry is to let your pastor know you feel called, have him mentor you some, maybe have him set up some preaching gigs, etc. etc.
If anyone is called of God the Pastor will know. Also the Pastor is NOT a BOOKING AGENT, booking agents are for entertianers. If a man has a call on their life Jesus will make a way for that Brother to go forward and preach and the pastor will help any way he can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico
It's good to have a mentor. I am not against taking this path into ministry in any way, shape, or form. However, I have recently begun to wonder if this established path into ministry is the only path. Take Paul's own words:
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Gal 1:15-19 (KJV)
You have to understand that Paul was already taught by the grandson of Hillel, and Paul was a called man of God. Paul then went to James and Peter to make sure he was on the same page, but Paul understood that he needed to be acountable to other Brothers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico
I haven't had the chance to study out the whole timeframe, but it is evident that Paul did not go talk with any of the apostles to get their approval of his ministry until well after he had been preaching.
He most certainly did, read the first chapter of Galatians; Paul went and conferred with James and Peter. Paul wanted to make sure that his notes matched with theirs. Remember Jesus sent out His followers two by two, and if you have a teacher, mentor, elder, or pastor, you need to make sure that you are not flying solo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt 3:1-2 (KJV)
Who mentored John the Baptist?
John was a Levite from the tribe of Levi, the Levis was the teaching tribe. Hear o Israel the Lord God is One and you are to TEACH that to your children.
Brother Rico we are talking Israel here not Dog Patch USA.
These people had teaching all around them, but to answer your question John was a Levi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico
My question to all of you is this-Do you believe that there are people, who are called of God, that God qualifies as ministers of His Holy Word, apart from them taking the established path I spoke about in my first paragraph?
I don't believe that God would contradict His pattern of the community, and of the Body of Christ (refer to 1st Corinthians 12)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico
The reason I ask is because God is calling me back into prison ministry. The conventional side of me is saying it can't be God because I don't have a church home.
What prison in America just allows anyone solo without a backing from a church to teach their prisoners? You must be talking about a one on one situation? Could you explain how an individual could gain access to prisoners with out being part of an established church family?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico
I don't have a pastor to guide me in any ministerial effort I make. My mind is telling me there has to be some sort of mistake.
You need some kind of fellowship of accountabilty, you need some Brothers who are also called to the work. There is no way around it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico
But there is another side of me saying that I don't need man's approval to take the Word of God to the jails and prisons in this area.
Well, then that is an attitude and not at all scriptural. Preaching to hard guys and then you have no back up? No one with you? Are you of the same caliber of the Apostle Paul? Paul had men with him that he was accountable to, and he traveled with them and he was not a wandering star.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico
This other side is telling me that God has already called and qualified me for this ministry and that I need to obey Him.
Qualified how? Would you mind telling me how?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico
I am in a quandry, gang. Everything I have ever been taught about ministry says you can't go out and preach without a church home, without a pastor backing you, without that recommendation. But I see in the Bible where others just obeyed God and went when He said to go. This is hard for me to reconcile. I need to hear some feedback. What do you think? Does God ever work outside the lines?
Some were SENT and most just WENT. Don't be part of the latter group.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
I have a question I would like to throw out for discussion. Most of you know the conventional path to ministry is to let your pastor know you feel called, have him mentor you some, maybe have him set up some preaching gigs, etc. etc. It's good to have a mentor. I am not against taking this path into ministry in any way, shape, or form. However, I have recently begun to wonder if this established path into ministry is the only path. Take Paul's own words...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
You need some kind of fellowship of accountabilty, you need some Brothers who are also called to the work. There is no way around it.
I agree with E.B. here. Just from my own experience, those times in my life when I just "rolled the dice" so to speak- I always lost. Those times when I planned things and sought counsel and got support- well, I still lost sometimes, but those were also the only times that I really had success.
God made us to need each other. That was the whole point of bringing the animals through the garden. God Himself wasn't surprised at the outcome. But the whole thing serves as a lesson that no one man is truly qualifies to go at it alone. And I'm not just talking marriage (Adam and Eve) here. They had the responsibility also of creating the human race- something you need a marriage to do.
But we as individuals also need other people to support us. What E.B. has shared here is really good. Those men in prison are a hard lot to deal with. You probably already know this. In time you may find disciples and helpers from within the walls. But especially at the outset, you need good godly help and counsel.
I agree with E.B. here. Just from my own experience, those times in my life when I just "rolled the dice" so to speak- I always lost. Those times when I planned things and sought counsel and got support- well, I still lost sometimes, but those were also the only times that I really had success.
God made us to need each other. That was the whole point of bringing the animals through the garden. God Himself wasn't surprised at the outcome. But the whole thing serves as a lesson that no one man is truly qualifies to go at it alone. And I'm not just talking marriage (Adam and Eve) here. They had the responsibility also of creating the human race- something you need a marriage to do.
But we as individuals also need other people to support us. What E.B. has shared here is really good. Those men in prison are a hard lot to deal with. You probably already know this. In time you may find disciples and helpers from within the walls. But especially at the outset, you need good godly help and counsel.
I concur. Nobody...NOBODY should go it alone. Yet it is my firm opinion that since Rico feels the call, then God will equip him with support.
What he needs to do is find brothers of like faith and burden. If he tries to go through a 'pastor' that isn't so minded, he's likely to be asked to run the puppet ministry instead. Nothing wrong with puppet ministries, entire organizations are full of them, if that is your calling.
If he goes though an organization that has a side prison ministry department, then they might be leery to involve a 'layperson' that looks like he might be an ex-con himself. They might want to pray the beard right off him and fix him up with a french noose first. (Word to the wise...beware that thou do not wear french nooses into prison ministry especially.)
(No offense Rico, you have nothing on me there. They are always licking their chops when I visit UPC, until I start worshipping, then they are really troubled and don't quite know what to do with me.)
His best shot is to explore the avenues of entry and pray. God will provide in due time.
I agree with E.B. here. Just from my own experience, those times in my life when I just "rolled the dice" so to speak- I always lost. Those times when I planned things and sought counsel and got support- well, I still lost sometimes, but those were also the only times that I really had success.
God made us to need each other. That was the whole point of bringing the animals through the garden. God Himself wasn't surprised at the outcome. But the whole thing serves as a lesson that no one man is truly qualifies to go at it alone. And I'm not just talking marriage (Adam and Eve) here. They had the responsibility also of creating the human race- something you need a marriage to do.
But we as individuals also need other people to support us. What E.B. has shared here is really good. Those men in prison are a hard lot to deal with. You probably already know this. In time you may find disciples and helpers from within the walls. But especially at the outset, you need good godly help and counsel.
Seeking and heeding wise counsel is always a profitable thing...I suppose finding a wise counselor is the key here.
"For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is SAFETY."
I understand that you have enacted the above principle when you asked for the counsel of this forum, but still asking a forum and having ministers are two different things.
You see there's a little red X in the top right corner of this screen and if you don't like what's being said to you, all you need to do is click it, but if you are with ministers, elders, mentors, and pastors, you can't do that. You may be able to leave the building, the ministry your attached to, or no longer attended that certain church, but when you stick it out with ministers they are going to hold you accountable. If you come up with some kooky idea (I'm not saying you have kooky ideas, just trying to build my case) and the other Brothers are going to want to inquire to how this kooky idea was formulated. If they can't see your idea under the light of scripture they may not want to authorize your actions.
You see my Brother; it all comes down to being able to have men tell you NO!
That's the real test, and if you can submit to a NO decision and solider through it because the rest of the crew saw that what you were doing was not going to help you or the group, then they may try to have you understand why your decision was wrong.
Human nature wants to be a one man show, and almost all great causes where started by a man having some vision, but that vision will fall flat if that man doesn't have a group that will HELP him make his vision jell.
We can talk all day long how God TOLD us to do X, Y, and Z, but if you don't have a group to help you make all that come to together you are only twisting in the wind. With support and accountability you can move and build mountains, but outlaws and cowboys end up messing up the lives of everyone they come in contact with, and people get really mad at those who preach to them about accountability to Jesus Christ who is unseen when they themselves cannot be accountable to people that they CAN SEE.
Church hoppers and church stoppers don't make good ministers because they were never able to hold down a job. This makes their résumé look real shabby. Now before you think I speaking of a secular job, I want to say that I am not speaking of secular work, but the work of Christ. If we cannot even get stable in a church setting or if every church we set a foot in we can't get OUR act together to work with the ministry. Then we need to look at ourselves first. After listening to a man tell me how he wants to win the world and can't even work with a pastor, ministers, elder, or deacons in getting under a vision with a group of people, I can't really believe that the individual who yearns to be in the ministry will do much of anything.
When we become our own pastor, we have NO pastor, we might make big proclamations that we only follow Jesus and that He tells us what we should do and that we ONLY follow the Bible, but every cult on the planet does that. We need to be around men who are NOT going to support every idea that flows through the portals of our mind.
I want to leave this discussion with this one thought; no man is a Pastor, Evangelist, Prophet, Apostle, and Teacher without people to work with. If a man is called his calling will make room for him. I have walked into churches where the preacher just had his family and who he had been preaching to his family for 12 years without new converts coming in. Well, guess what? The men who say that they are ministers, who have no fruit of babies being born again, can't really say they are ministers. They may be called of God, (please don't get me wrong), but they are doing themselves a great injustice, because they will not get men to work with them to make the vision work.
Now there are those who have as much right to be in a pulpit as Pee Wee Herman, and they eventually make shipwreck of themselves and their families. We should hope and pray that those individuals are few, sadly they are not.
Lord bless you Brother Rico and I hope you consider all I have said to you and I hope you pray futher about this issue. I said it as a friend to a friend, and wish you all the very best.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
E.B. wrote in the conclusion portion of his last post to Rico…
Quote:
When we become our own pastor, we have NO pastor, we might make big proclamations that we only follow Jesus and that He tells us what we should do and that we ONLY follow the Bible, but every cult on the planet does that. We need to be around men who are NOT going to support every idea that flows through the portals of our mind.
I want to leave this discussion with this one thought; no man is a Pastor, Evangelist, Prophet, Apostle, and Teacher without people to work with. If a man is called his calling will make room for him. I have walked into churches where the preacher just had his family and who he had been preaching to his family for 12 years without new converts coming in. Well, guess what? The men who say that they are ministers, who have no fruit of babies being born again, can't really say they are ministers. They may be called of God, (please don't get me wrong), but they are doing themselves a great injustice, because they will not get men to work with them to make the vision work.
Now there are those who have as much right to be in a pulpit as Pee Wee Herman, and they eventually make shipwreck of themselves and their families. We should hope and pray that those individuals are few, sadly they are not.
My general reaction to the spirit of this quoted portion is AMEN, wise counsels.
The odd part that seems to contradict itself is that E.B. has identified PASTOR as the wheel in the middle of the wheel. I feel confident to say (subject of course to any clarification from him), E.B. is advancing a view that a PASTOR is a SINGLE person in somebody’s life. This despite his eloquent and thoughtful acknowledgement that very little is prosperous in God when constrained within one singular VESSEL.
How did PASTOR make it to such a singular preeminent spiritual gifting when certainly everyone can acknowledge Apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers as also being the wisdom of God for the edification of his own body?
My vision for the body of Christ is this:
Note: To set up the scene I ask you consider (get in your mind’s eye) three things:
1. The neighborhood you live in
2. The original construct of the UPCI in 1948.
3. The US Constitution (A Federal government established to protect individual and State’s rights)
Shared experiences and desired outcomes unite us in a willingness to forego individual liberties and submit ourselves to joining together to achieve something that could not be experienced separately. That is good because it is good when men do not strive, but instead, submit themselves one to another so that the whole can exceed its parts. That is what a neighborhood does. Public water, public roads, public air, public civility, is served by the common needs having a vast plurality of resources contributing to establish and maintain these ‘quality of life’ issues. That is what God has provided his church.
Every member of God’s Kingdom should experience life in Christ as a member-minister joining the UPCI in 1948. We are vastly different in the specifics of our callings and elections, but we share in those things established in the principles of the doctrine of Christ. An assembly of priests; everyone called to fellowship with God on his Holy Mountain. No one with a preeminent seat because the diversity of the body is established in service to the body not in RULE. Let he that is greatest among all of these, be servant to all. God has provided this to the members of his body.
Our constitution was established to protect the liberties of the individual while seeking to provide a means to serve the COMMON needs that a nation of states would face.
The preamble:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
How many words will go into amendments for a TV advertisement resolution today? In such few words the agreement for the common/shared realm is enumerated in the above quote that will inherently embody the securing of the blessings of liberty to ourselves. That is what God has intended for the fellowship of his Saints.
Our present delivery system of men who declare themselves to be “pastors by call from God” does not insure and protect individual liberties.
But if we, AS INDIVIDUALS, are empowered to make the decision to forego (submit) our own liberty for the greater common cause, then individual liberty is fully maintained while the common cause is served.
Ephesians 4:11 is about God-supplied gifts to serve the shared experience, to administer God’s counsels for the constitution (so to speak) of his own body. His Spirit will do the work and when his Spirit is working in these areas their will be a manifestation of 1 or more of those ministrations.
We need to decide what WE AS INDIVIDUALS share as common goals. When we leave our private or individual lives and enter into the common/shared realm, we need to have agreement about how the giftings provided by God for such matters operate.
........
I included E.B.’s PeeWee Herman reference above. If it is possible that we could be receiving counsels to OBEY the PeeWee Herman that God has placed OVER us, there is a foundational error in the premise of the delivery system.
At this point everyone seems to have their own image of what a PASTOR is (and should be) based on experience with a system of member-ministers in an organization of men. I DO NOT believe that the SUPERMAJORITY of men who call themselves PASTOR have a PASTOR in their life that operates in the quantity and specificity that the local guy does with what he thinks are HIS SHEEP. If they did, we are truly a denomination. The dynamic unfolding at Tampa as I type this is pretty much, proof-positive, that at least 50% of the voting members there do not believe they joined a denomination.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
"For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is SAFETY."
I understand that you have enacted the above principle when you asked for the counsel of this forum, but still asking a forum and having ministers are two different things.
You see there's a little red X in the top right corner of this screen and if you don't like what's being said to you, all you need to do is click it, but if you are with ministers, elders, mentors, and pastors, you can't do that. You may be able to leave the building, the ministry your attached to, or no longer attended that certain church, but when you stick it out with ministers they are going to hold you accountable. If you come up with some kooky idea (I'm not saying you have kooky ideas, just trying to build my case) and the other Brothers are going to want to inquire to how this kooky idea was formulated. If they can't see your idea under the light of scripture they may not want to authorize your actions.
You see my Brother; it all comes down to being able to have men tell you NO!
That's the real test, and if you can submit to a NO decision and solider through it because the rest of the crew saw that what you were doing was not going to help you or the group, then they may try to have you understand why your decision was wrong.
Human nature wants to be a one man show, and almost all great causes where started by a man having some vision, but that vision will fall flat if that man doesn't have a group that will HELP him make his vision jell.
We can talk all day long how God TOLD us to do X, Y, and Z, but if you don't have a group to help you make all that come to together you are only twisting in the wind. With support and accountability you can move and build mountains, but outlaws and cowboys end up messing up the lives of everyone they come in contact with, and people get really mad at those who preach to them about accountability to Jesus Christ who is unseen when they themselves cannot be accountable to people that they CAN SEE.
Church hoppers and church stoppers don't make good ministers because they were never able to hold down a job. This makes their résumé look real shabby. Now before you think I speaking of a secular job, I want to say that I am not speaking of secular work, but the work of Christ. If we cannot even get stable in a church setting or if every church we set a foot in we can't get OUR act together to work with the ministry. Then we need to look at ourselves first. After listening to a man tell me how he wants to win the world and can't even work with a pastor, ministers, elder, or deacons in getting under a vision with a group of people, I can't really believe that the individual who yearns to be in the ministry will do much of anything.
When we become our own pastor, we have NO pastor, we might make big proclamations that we only follow Jesus and that He tells us what we should do and that we ONLY follow the Bible, but every cult on the planet does that. We need to be around men who are NOT going to support every idea that flows through the portals of our mind.
I want to leave this discussion with this one thought; no man is a Pastor, Evangelist, Prophet, Apostle, and Teacher without people to work with. If a man is called his calling will make room for him. I have walked into churches where the preacher just had his family and who he had been preaching to his family for 12 years without new converts coming in. Well, guess what? The men who say that they are ministers, who have no fruit of babies being born again, can't really say they are ministers. They may be called of God, (please don't get me wrong), but they are doing themselves a great injustice, because they will not get men to work with them to make the vision work.
Now there are those who have as much right to be in a pulpit as Pee Wee Herman, and they eventually make shipwreck of themselves and their families. We should hope and pray that those individuals are few, sadly they are not.
Lord bless you Brother Rico and I hope you consider all I have said to you and I hope you pray futher about this issue. I said it as a friend to a friend, and wish you all the very best.
While I can agree with some of what you've offered Rico, and the Scriptures stated illustrate perfectly just why the sola pastora system is ultimately inept and unBiblical, I have a question.
What do you advise when men tell you NO and God tells you yes?
While you ponder that, realize that sometimes we walk alone in this world when we follow God. As long as God lives we can never be without a Shepherd, and as a result, if we follow God we have not become our own pastor.
That isn't to say that some don't. Many don't follow God, become their own pastor, start a church, and dub themselves the Man of God and lead many.
Those that follow God will not be forsaken, as time goes on God works it out that the right counsel, with focused vision, and like burdens, find one another. That is the power that moves mountains, not a bunch of cowboys and outlaws that may have teamed up for the sake of personal interest under any name, though they may accomplish something, scratch the mountain, and put up signs. These are those that flee to all quarters when things don't go their way and the mountain rumbles. They want to play little kings of the mountain and call it their own, when all the while it belongs to God.
When those that follow God submit themselves to His plan and work together with one another and with God, the mountain is moved for His glory.
I don't think Rico is planning to go it alone, though he may start the journey heading out lonesome in some folk’s perception. If God has called him to this, he isn't alone in the sight of the right kind of eyes. I'm sure that as God works he will find a companion here and there. It will take courage and resolve, but such are the elements of reward.
It sure beats sitting down when someone thinks they see something kooky and tells you: "NO, play with me in my sandbox, be a part of my idea...it is not kooky, we've always done it this way"
Rico is accountable to God first, no matter how kooky the calling might appear (I'm not saying that you are calling this endeavor kooky, I'm just building my case). If it is from God, there will be plenty of opposition, but beyond that, plenty of help to be accountable one to another, provided that he isn't discouraged to chalk it up to a flight of fancy and told to have a seat.
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