Why did you not highlight 'specifically a Christian teacher and pastor' in the definition above? And if she was running errands, please explain why Paul told MEN to help her in whatever she needed of them? Doesn't sound to me like she was running, but that those men were!
Otherwise Paul would have instructed her to do as those men instructed of her. Too bad you weren't there to tell him how to word that.
I didn't highlight the words for pastor or teacher because Brother Miller already pointed that out. I just brought the attention to exactly what Phebe was, and that was a messenger who carried letters to the churches. Nothing more and nothing less. It's you who are building a case out of thin air over a Phebe. Even in plain English there is no indicator that Phebe was nothing more than an individual who helped the apostles as assisting them for errands. You still have failed to disprove what I have written concerning women teaching and preaching to men? It's amazing that history is dormant about these great female apostles and pastors who revolutionized the first and second century.
It's also interesting how you are grasping (or should I say gasping) to build a case from nothing more than a few tid bits that are more vague than clear.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
1. a woman set over others
2. a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources
Oops......looks like she was in leadership!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
I didn't highlight the words for pastor or teacher because Brother Miller already pointed that out. I just brought the attention to exactly what Phebe was, and that was a messenger who carried letters to the churches. Nothing more and nothing less. It's you who are building a case out of thin air over a Phebe. Even in plain English there is no indicator that Phebe was nothing more than an individual who helped the apostles as assisting them for errands. You still have failed to disprove what I have written concerning women teaching and preaching to men? It's amazing that history is dormant about these great female apostles and pastors who revolutionized the first and second century.
It's also interesting how you are grasping (or should I say gasping) to build a case from nothing more than a few tid bits that are more vague than clear.
I didn't highlight the words for pastor or teacher because Brother Miller already pointed that out. I just brought the attention to exactly what Phebe was, and that was a messenger who carried letters to the churches. Nothing more and nothing less. It's you who are building a case out of thin air over a Phebe. Even in plain English there is no indicator that Phebe was nothing more than an individual who helped the apostles as assisting them for errands. You still have failed to disprove what I have written concerning women teaching and preaching to men? It's amazing that history is dormant about these great female apostles and pastors who revolutionized the first and second century.
It's also interesting how you are grasping (or should I say gasping) to build a case from nothing more than a few tid bits that are more vague than clear.
If all she was doing was carrying a letter, why the instruction by Paul to those men to help her in whatever she needed of them? What did she need, a ride home? A recipe for peanut brittle? A sewing machine?
Paul placed Phoebe in that position because he trusted her as a leader of the people. 'Succourer' is only mentioned once in the Bible, and it's used for Phoebe. You can't explain that away.
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
You call it grasping, but you are clearly ignoring the obvious.
That's your right.
Yes the obvious is that you are wrong. I wish you were in front of me in person right now so I can shake your hand. Because you're the first Greek scholar I have ever read that places Phebe over Paul. Very good, you win cookie. Sorry but you need to use your Greek dictionary in accordance with the chapter you are trying to interpret. This will help you from going off into some strange conclusions.Are you currently under a female pastor’s ministry?
Or are you currently a female minister?
"That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also."
Paul is writing the church within his letter to the Romans about Phebe and that the church was to help her on her journey. This is her business that Paul speaks of. Now the word for "succourer" is a derivative of the Greek word proistēmi, which means to "stand before in rank" or to direct or maintain. It is also used as to rule in Romans 12:8, but this is not it's meaning when we look at Romans 16:2, the Greek word is prostatis is the feminine to assist, and does not mean a woman set over MEN.
You took the interpretation form the Thayers Lexicon where it says the word means a woman set over (NOTICE IT DOES NOT SAY WHAT SHE IS OVER). When we look further we cannot find anywhere in our Bibles where the Greek word prostatis is you in conjuction with the teaching or training of men. Clearly it does not hold that meaning in Romans 16:2, because Paul is making his comment that Phebe has helped himself and others. Paul is not saying in Romans 16:2 that Phebe was ever over him. Nor was she over him during his writing of the letter.
We first learn about Phebe in Romans chapter 16, and other than that the Bible never metions here again.
Thayers Lexicon:
patroness,
caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources.
You would be hard pressed to prove that Phebe was used in any capacity in where she was over men as in teaching or instruction in training for the ministry. It just was not proper in the first century for women to be over married or adult single men. The Jewish customs forbid any thing of the sort.
Phebe was clearly an individual to was there to be of assistance and to run errands. Sorry to disappoint all those of the Helen Gurley Brown persuasions.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
If all she was doing was carrying a letter, why the instruction by Paul to those men to help her in whatever she needed of them? What did she need, a ride home? A recipe for peanut brittle? A sewing machine?
Paul placed Phoebe in that position because he trusted her as a leader of the people. 'Succourer' is only mentioned once in the Bible, and it's used for Phoebe. You can't explain that away.
I can't explain that away? I'm not trying to explain that away. I am telling you what it means. You are the one who is coming up with all this amazing commentary. My goodness if you keep it up you will be able to have your own novel about how Phebe taught John the Revelator on the Island of Patmos.
Why don't you prove that Phebe was a pastor over men? Try that, and get your argument stronger.
So far you have failed to prove anything that goes along the lines of what I originally posted in my other posts.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Yes the obvious is that you are wrong. I wish you were in front of me in person right now so I can shake your hand. Because you're the first Greek scholar I have ever read that places Phebe over Paul. Very good, you win cookie. Sorry but you need to use your Greek dictionary in accordance with the chapter you are trying to interpret. This will help you from going off into some strange conclusions.Are you currently under a female pastor’s ministry?
Or are you currently a female minister?
"That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also."
Paul is writing the church within his letter to the Romans about Phebe and that the church was to help her on her journey. This is her business that Paul speaks of. Now the word for "succourer" is a derivative of the Greek word proistēmi, which means to "stand before in rank" or to direct or maintain. It is also used as to rule in Romans 12:8, but this is not it's meaning when we look at Romans 16:2, the Greek word is prostatis is the feminine to assist, and does not mean a woman set over MEN.
You took the interpretation form the Thayers Lexicon where it says the word means a woman set over (NOTICE IT DOES NOT SAY WHAT SHE IS OVER). When we look further we cannot find anywhere in our Bibles where the Greek word prostatis is you in conjuction with the teaching or training of men. Clearly it does not hold that meaning in Romans 16:2, because Paul is making his comment that Phebe has helped himself and others. Paul is not saying in Romans 16:2 that Phebe was ever over him. Nor was she over him during his writing of the letter.
We first learn about Phebe in Romans chapter 16, and other than that the Bible never metions here again.
Thayers Lexicon:
patroness,
caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources.
You would be hard pressed to prove that Phebe was used in any capacity in where she was over men as in teaching or instruction in training for the ministry. It just was not proper in the first century for women to be over married or adult single men. The Jewish customs forbid any thing of the sort.
Phebe was clearly an individual to was there to be of assistance and to run errands. Sorry to disappoint all those of the Helen Gurley Brown persuasions.
You can't escape the fact that if she wasn't over men in some capacity, there would have been no reason for Paul to instruct those men to do as she needed. The instruction would have been to Phoebe, not the men.
And 'succourer' is a woman set over others. No, it doesn't mention men, but it doesn't exclude them either.
I don't believe Paul was the idiot you seem to think he was. I think he knew exactly what he was talking about when he called her a 'succourer of many'. There is a reason why that word is mentioned only in regard to her and not others.
I believe Paul when he spoke of her and considered her a leader. You can explain Paul's words away all you want, but I still have them in my Bible.
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
I can't explain that away? I'm not trying to explain that away. I am telling you what it means. You are the one who is coming up with all this amazing commentary. My goodness if you keep it up you will be able to have your own novel about how Phebe taught John the Revelator on the Island of Patmos.
Why don't you prove that Phebe was a pastor over men? Try that, and get your argument stronger.
So far you have failed to prove anything that goes along the lines of what I originally posted in my other posts.
You can escape the fact that if she wasn't over men in some capacity, there would have been no reason for Paul to instruct those men to do as she needed.
The above statement makes no sense could you possibly try to make that thought a bit clearer? Escape the fact? When did you present a fact that Phebe was over men? Did you glean the "fact" because Paul asks the Romans to help her? You are not making a clear case for this argument.
How do you determine that? Please explain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
The instruction would have been to Phoebe, not the men.
To help her concerning her business as in her errands to assit. Nothing more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
And 'succourer' is a woman set over others. No, it doesn't mention men, but it doesn't exclude them either.
Wait a minute so are you saying that we build doctrines from one Greek Lexicon? I gave you chapter and verse, and you are holding on to one Greek Lexicon's statement? That's good, that's real scary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
I don't believe Paul was the idiot you seem to think he was.
Oh that's good, you getting a little tired. That was uncalled for. Hey, I'm trying to have a discussion with you. You don't need to show me that you're running out of fuel by putting words into my mouth. Lighten up. Are you running out of steam? Then go study this out and come back when you have your good stuff together. Don't get nasty. I'm not doing anything wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
I think he knew exactly what he was talking about when he called her a 'succourer of many'.
Which simply meant she helped or assited many. You are putting more into this verse than truth allows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
There is a reason why that word is mentioned only in regard to her and not others.
There are many other women who were among the apostles and Phebe was an assistant, someone who ran errands. Please prove how she was over men in a teaching capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
I believe Paul when he spoke of her and considered her a leader.
WHAT!?!? Where did you come up with that? Prove that statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
You can explain Paul's words away all you want, but I still have them in my Bible.
Wonderful her's your chance to shine, prove what you said. Paul consider her a LEADER? What?
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Uh....that's not my point. Why would I try proving something I don't believe is true?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
You can't escape the fact that if she wasn't over men in some capacity, there would have been no reason for Paul to instruct those men to do as she needed. The instruction would have been to Phoebe, not the men.
Excuse me but wasn't it you who said that I didn't highlight pastor or Christian leader, when I posted the meaning of the Greek? If you didn't think that was important to your case then why did you make the fuss?
You must believe that Phebe was some kind of pastor do you not? That would be a yes or no answer, also would you say that Phebe was over men in some capacity? If your answer is yes, then please explain how and how would she compare with Eph 4:11? Let's see how you prove that Phebe was a leader over men in some capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
Or are you not reading my posts as you accuse me of doing with yours?
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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