First, you're asking these questions to a guy who would be one that is "weak" on doctrine. I don't believe that trinity is any worse/better than oneness. The two of them are mere ideas that one wishes to believe and prove. You're speaking to a guy who believes that theologies are mere opinions. That said, i believe that everyone has a theology.
Personally, my theology is as simple as this:
I believe God is. I believe that Jesus is messiah. I believe that we are to love God with our everything and love our neighbor as ourselves. Everything else is mere commentary.
Outside of these basics -- I can't give you much more than opinion. We can all set around and quote scripture and pontificate about the different theologies that we believe. This doesn't mean that I'm necessarily weak on doctrine because I do believe things outside of that simple basis BUT I can't do much more than say that what I believe is merely my opinion. I can discuss my opinion, providing reasons why I believe my opinion, BUT I can not allow my opinion (theology) to become the basis of everything I am about. At the point that my theology is so concrete that God himself could walk into the room and because he was eating corn on the sabbath (which was mere theological law) I dismiss him as being carnal and weak because he doesn't fit into what I absolutely know is "true" -- I find myself having a form of Godliness but deny the very power thereof.
At the point that I can not understand the others point of view/theology I have ham-stringed myself because it is at that point that I close a door that God could very well walk through. And some people aren't comfortable with doing that -- which I understand. BUT one can not dismiss another's theology out of hand. We are to gather together and seek the face of God -- not demand that everyone believes as I do.
Truth will stand -- and if it doesn't, it isn't Truth that has changed, rather it is our inability to evolve into where Truth is leading that is the problem. The problem is when we POSSESS Truth. At that point it is MY truth and you must accept that which I say is Truth. Truth is not to be possessed but to be looked for and found -- but not possessed. The Jews have a saying that was said in the days of old (mere commentary, of course). They say that Torah is like a multi-faceted jewel with 70 sides. Their point is that the Torah doesn't change but it does seem to appear different depending on how one beholds the jewel.
Truth does not change -- we do. Our lives do. Our culture does. Our society does.
for a guy who I dont really agree with, you sure do say stuff that I really really agree with.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
First, you're asking these questions to a guy who would be one that is "weak" on doctrine. I don't believe that trinity is any worse/better than oneness. The two of them are mere ideas that one wishes to believe and prove. You're speaking to a guy who believes that theologies are mere opinions. That said, i believe that everyone has a theology.
Personally, my theology is as simple as this:
I believe God is. I believe that Jesus is messiah. I believe that we are to love God with our everything and love our neighbor as ourselves. Everything else is mere commentary.
Outside of these basics -- I can't give you much more than opinion. We can all set around and quote scripture and pontificate about the different theologies that we believe. This doesn't mean that I'm necessarily weak on doctrine because I do believe things outside of that simple basis BUT I can't do much more than say that what I believe is merely my opinion. I can discuss my opinion, providing reasons why I believe my opinion, BUT I can not allow my opinion (theology) to become the basis of everything I am about. At the point that my theology is so concrete that God himself could walk into the room and because he was eating corn on the sabbath (which was mere theological law) I dismiss him as being carnal and weak because he doesn't fit into what I absolutely know is "true" -- I find myself having a form of Godliness but deny the very power thereof.
At the point that I can not understand the others point of view/theology I have ham-stringed myself because it is at that point that I close a door that God could very well walk through. And some people aren't comfortable with doing that -- which I understand. BUT one can not dismiss another's theology out of hand. We are to gather together and seek the face of God -- not demand that everyone believes as I do.
Truth will stand -- and if it doesn't, it isn't Truth that has changed, rather it is our inability to evolve into where Truth is leading that is the problem. The problem is when we POSSESS Truth. At that point it is MY truth and you must accept that which I say is Truth. Truth is not to be possessed but to be looked for and found -- but not possessed. The Jews have a saying that was said in the days of old (mere commentary, of course). They say that Torah is like a multi-faceted jewel with 70 sides. Their point is that the Torah doesn't change but it does seem to appear different depending on how one beholds the jewel.
Truth does not change -- we do. Our lives do. Our culture does. Our society does.
I like this NS! It seems Ferd does too and having him vouching for you is always good.
Raven
for a guy who I dont really agree with, you sure do say stuff that I really really agree with.
**faints with surprise**
__________________ Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break into pieces. | Etienne de la Boetie
Nathan, what’s your view on elders? What part do they play according to your understanding? I believe elders are like what we traditionally call pastors or ministers. However, instead of a church assembly being lead by a single elder (pastor) it is more or less an eldership, or college of elders, who lead the church as servant leaders. They are to be called “brother” as with any brother of the church, to be men, and are to teach, rebuke, reprove, and admonish out of the Word of God as necessary, in a spirit of love.
As a rule, I traditionally only offer general admonishments in a public gathering. If there is a need for a personal admonishment I believe it should be done in private.
__________________
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
Nathan, what’s your view on elders? What part do they play according to your understanding? I believe elders are like what we traditionally call pastors or ministers. However, instead of a church assembly being lead by a single elder (pastor) it is more or less an eldership, or college of elders, who lead the church as servant leaders. They are to be called “brother” as with any brother of the church, to be men, and are to teach, rebuke, reprove, and admonish out of the Word of God as necessary, in a spirit of love.
As a rule, I traditionally only offer general admonishments in a public gathering. If there is a need for a personal admonishment I believe it should be done in private.
I don't disagree with that at all. My only real problem with the more modern model is that it has the singular model and, inherently, demeans (that's the wrong word but the only one I can come up with right now) the "saints" causing them to be weak and incapable, often only able to depend on the singular pastoral position.
Frankly, I believe that a pastor is to be more of a facilitator for others ministries. His purpose is to equip others with the ability to do their personal ministry -- no matter what that may be. And I do believe that the only difference between "elder" and "non-elder" is the spiritual maturity that one holds -- which is an entirely different conversation. I believe that it should be the goal of all elders to assist non-elders into become elders so that the church can grow/split/grow/split/grow/split, etc...
I see the ministry not as a pyramid/militarist's idea; rather I see the structure as being more circular where God is central and emanates through every person toward the lost. Where there truly is no respecter of persons, rather all are equal in the eyes of God and who's sole purpose is to love God (worship/praise/etc) and to love each other as they love themselves.
__________________ Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break into pieces. | Etienne de la Boetie
Paul Yongi Cho started with homechurches and now It is the largest church in the world. I emailed them a few months ago asking how many attended, I got a reply back that there were 789,953 at sunday services that week.
Their church is located the capital of South Korea.
Paul Yongi Cho started with home churches and now It is the largest church in the world. I emailed them a few months ago asking how many attended, I got a reply back that there were 789,953 at Sunday services that week.
Their church is located the capital of South Korea.
And they that turned the city upside down have come to Seoul.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
I met a couple who are a very modest Christian couple with three beautiful children. They believed a like us and my wife and I really hit it off with them and so we invited them to church. They explained to us that they believed in “house churching”.
I think that is wonderful! I wish I could run into a family like that in my area....or that God would take me to an area that does have them.
I don't disagree with that at all. My only real problem with the more modern model is that it has the singular model and, inherently, demeans (that's the wrong word but the only one I can come up with right now) the "saints" causing them to be weak and incapable, often only able to depend on the singular pastoral position.
Frankly, I believe that a pastor is to be more of a facilitator for others ministries. His purpose is to equip others with the ability to do their personal ministry -- no matter what that may be. And I do believe that the only difference between "elder" and "non-elder" is the spiritual maturity that one holds -- which is an entirely different conversation. I believe that it should be the goal of all elders to assist non-elders into become elders so that the church can grow/split/grow/split/grow/split, etc...
I see the ministry not as a pyramid/militarist's idea; rather I see the structure as being more circular where God is central and emanates through every person toward the lost. Where there truly is no respecter of persons, rather all are equal in the eyes of God and who's sole purpose is to love God (worship/praise/etc) and to love each other as they love themselves.
I have studied up on some of the things you said above and I have to say that I agree with you. I can see a pastor facilitating and perhaps leading. However, not leading to establish a following but leading to produce other elders and pastors. In the Bible, if I remember correctly, up to three men could prophesy in the gatherings. I think it would be awesome to see the pastor open the discussion and maybe provide a little lesson on what God has been dealing with him about and then opening the floor for discussion or even allowing two others to share what God has been teaching them. Maybe the pastor might feel the Holy Ghost moving and just choose to keep his lesson ready for the next meeting and allow up to three other brothers to teach the church what they've been learning. I think if some pastors would allow men to use their gifts they might be amazed at the untapped depth and wisdom that many of our saints have.
Bro. Nathan, do you house church?
Any house church pastors, elders, or facilitators out there? I'd like to talk because I have a few questions.
I really appreciate you guys. God bless.
__________________
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
I don't disagree with that at all. My only real problem with the more modern model is that it has the singular model and, inherently, demeans (that's the wrong word but the only one I can come up with right now) the "saints" causing them to be weak and incapable, often only able to depend on the singular pastoral position.
I heard a cd a while back about families and the church. It made an excellent point that the modern church structure breeds spiritual immaturity. The saints are taught to sit on the pew and be fed from the pulpit and too often it leads to a complete dependence upon the leadership for all of their spiritual nourishment. Yet in the bible 2 or three would teach/prophesy and the others were to judge. That implies an interaction between those teaching and those receiving. How much more will a person dig into the word for themselves if they know they will be participating in the fellowship? How can that happen in an auditorium or even stadium setting where only one man has the microphone?
House church is something I have been studying for some time. A forum was just started for those who do house church or are looking for house churches to try to connect. I know there are a great number of people out there that are interested in the subject, and since "house church" goes against the traditional flow, and are often not part of an official organization, they can be hard to find for those seeking.
But I just came across this article the other day, and thought I would share it.
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