Bishop Jakes Responses to His Critics!!

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by tv1a

1. Jakes isn't your pastor.

Yes I know Jakes isnt my pastor. So what? So I don't have a right to an opinion on his ministry? The idea here is "scrutiny", not accountability. He's accountable to God and his congregation. But his words can be scrutinized by anyone in the body.

Jakes has chosen to take his ministry nationwide and beyond, to the airwaves, books, etc. When your influence and your reach begin to stretch far and wide, there will be more saints who are gong to be taking a look at what you're saying to see how it measure up to the word. I think Jakes expects, understands, and accepts that. Not sure if you do though.

Originally Posted by tv1a

2. Things have to tempererd with scripture.

Um.. ok. Meaning what exactly? My previous response to you on the topic was based on scripture. You demanded scripture for my "claim" ,and I gave it to you. So, moving on...

Originally Posted by tv1a

3. Saints do not have a right to undermine a preacher over subjective issues. Period.

Jakes isn't being "undermined" because somebody on a message board disagrees with him... no more than his ministry would be bolstered by you defending him on this message board.

Seems as if , in your way of thinking, we should say good things if we agree with a preacher... but if we think he's preaching error or compromising his doctrine (especially on what you consider subjective/non-salvational(?) issues), we should just be quiet, so as not to seem to be "undermining" him? Okey dokey. If that logic works for you, then go for it.

Originally Posted by tv1a

Jakes' non committal language about a subject that is irrelevant to salvation is no big deal. Why waste the time developing a Oneness statement when it has no bearing on one's salvation. It's choking on a gnat.

If the issue wasn't important then why did he issue a statement at all?

You claim that his non-committal language is "no big deal", but why even issue a statement if you're going to word it with non-commital language? You're missing the whole point there. His intentionally "non-commital language", as you put it, is exactly the issue here. It makes him seem like he is trying to be evasive.

Whether his positions is Oneness, Trinity, or some hybrid variation in between, the man must certainly know by now what he believes on the topic. He chose to come out with a statement that was anything but clear, which is odd for a man who normally speaks with great eloquence & clarity. A reasonable person might conclude then, that he was being intentionally vague. The natural question then, is "why"?

That is the primary reason why so many Oneness and Trinitarian folks find his statement disturbing... because it just furthers the long-held perception that he uses carefully-crafted verbiage to cover up his true thoughts and convictions on the issue -- not something you'd expect for a preacher of his stature. Maybe to you that's "not a big deal". But to some saints it is a big deal. And an issue doesn't necessarily have to be "salvational", by the way, for it to be important.

I think people expect any preacher/pastor, (whether his church has 23 people or 23,000) to be willing and able to express his core convictions on any of the foundational doctrines of the bible (such as the Godhead).

----

You seem to think anything not directly related to salvation is "choking on a gnat". Nobody's choking on a gnat here. The man chose to issue a statement, so don't we have the right to analyze his statement? Jakes thought it was important enough to issue a statement about it, so we think its important enough to discuss! And if people disagree regarding the content of the statement, so be it . That's what discussion is for.

If you disagree with someone's position, so be it. If you have scripture to bolster your point, fine. But don't give people a hard time for their opinions.
Fact is, TV1a... this is a message board where people have the right to give their thoughts on various topics in Christendom.
If you want to be a Jakes fan/defender, so be it. I am not, and I have the right to express that.

Peace.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The word TRINITY in and of itself is not a bad term in oneness theology. Trinity simply means THREE IN UNITY. But if it is a matter of THREE persons in unity, then that is wrong. But three manifestations in unity is a trinity and is altogether correct.
But since TRINITY is mostly known and recognized as referring to THREE PERSONS, it is a ploy for a oneness person to imply manifestations when using the words, knowing that trinitarians with faith in three persons will not realize the ploy and let it slip by, thus avoiding confrontation and persecution.

I agree and I am not afraid of the term although I was raised to despise it and still do because of how it has been adopted, taught wrong.

I'm not going to bash the Trinity to people... I believe when we focus on what we do have in common with people… it makes it so much easier to get them to open up and discuss the bible so they have a revelation of who he truly is.

My beef with the Trinity being taught as the three persons co-eternal, co existing… In all the people I have discussed theology with… very few actually believe the three persons in Trinity… I think what they are taught that Jesus was somehow in the beginning in flesh form… but when you really point out through scripture how that isn’t possible.. and teach it from the angle that God is Spirit… Jesus was in the beginning as the Word...because he is God... it is like light bulbs going off in their heads... you can just see the wheels turning.

I am part of a weekly bible study group of women from my area. Currently it is 15 women gathered together every week to discuss a certain book of the bible by chapter… right now we are in the book of Philippians. There are some very precious people who are part of local churches who see our God as one… and really have never been taught the true Trinitarian doctrine… or maybe just parts of it. They do not understand God as three persons making up one. They never identify the Holy Ghost as a “person”…. but the Spirit of God sent back to lead and guide us. It is the revelation of who Jesus is that needs to be explained to them... and to be honest...I am not convinced that every Apostolic sitting on our pews baptized in Jesus name understands completely who Jesus is. That revelation comes with personal study..

I know what God has called me to do, and after gaining trust and respect with these ladies, have been able to talk to them from my heart. I just give them a little here and there… just enough to get them thinking and looking into the bible on their own. It is my hearts desire to see them grow in the scriptures and experience what I have… they are so hungry to learn more of God. They come into study w/ bible, note books... all ready to dig in and learn. I want to see them turn their church/world upside down with the experience and truth.. The most wonderful thing is I am learning from them..about true love for people... sorely lacking among our faith.

On the subject of T.D. Jakes… I don’t have a problem using these well known names to open the door to conversation and discussion… and that I am not alone in my beliefs…. Recently in one of our meetings I mentioned that Phillips, Craig and Dean is coming to our town to hold a concert at the church where three of our ladies attend. I asked them if they realized that PCD were raised in the same as I was… I just explained it was also the reason why our local radio station won’t play PCD music is because the doctrine of believing God is one and not adopting the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons and baptism in Jesus name. They are upset at the discrimination... they accept me just as I accept them as believers.. and yes, we are believers...

I for one am tired of everyone arguing over nit picking details of terminology… I plan to teach Jesus as I know him…I want him to be completely revealed to them just as he was to me…

I feel the the Apostolic church in general has alienated themselves from Christians serving God the only way they have been taught… they are good, faithful Christians… devout….living for God with pure hearts… I plan to take this gospel to every Cornelius out there I can… and feel that Apostolics need to realize like Peter… God is the judge of all people… don’t write people off, because God does have people sitting on the pews of non Apostolic churches.. He intends for us to share this gospel more fully… build upon what is already been taught.

[OP_Carl]

Lisa,

You are an amazing woman with a powerful insight. Your special ministry is crucial and biblical. Keep up the good work!

Carl

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

I agree and I am not afraid of the term although I was raised to despise it and still do because of how it has been adopted, taught wrong.

I'm not going to bash the Trinity to people... I believe when we focus on what we do have in common with people… it makes it so much easier to get them to open up and discuss the bible so they have a revelation of who he truly is.

My beef with the Trinity being taught as the three persons co-eternal, co existing… In all the people I have discussed theology with… very few actually believe the three persons in Trinity… I think what they are taught that Jesus was somehow in the beginning in flesh form… but when you really point out through scripture how that isn’t possible.. and teach it from the angle that God is Spirit… Jesus was in the beginning as the Word...because he is God... it is like light bulbs going off in their heads... you can just see the wheels turning.

I am part of a weekly bible study group of women from my area. Currently it is 15 women gathered together every week to discuss a certain book of the bible by chapter… right now we are in the book of Philippians. There are some very precious people who are part of local churches who see our God as one… and really have never been taught the true Trinitarian doctrine… or maybe just parts of it. They do not understand God as three persons making up one. They never identify the Holy Ghost as a “person”…. but the Spirit of God sent back to lead and guide us. It is the revelation of who Jesus is that needs to be explained to them... and to be honest...I am not convinced that every Apostolic sitting on our pews baptized in Jesus name understands completely who Jesus is. That revelation comes with personal study..

I know what God has called me to do, and after gaining trust and respect with these ladies, have been able to talk to them from my heart. I just give them a little here and there… just enough to get them thinking and looking into the bible on their own. It is my hearts desire to see them grow in the scriptures and experience what I have… they are so hungry to learn more of God. They come into study w/ bible, note books... all ready to dig in and learn. I want to see them turn their church/world upside down with the experience and truth.. The most wonderful thing is I am learning from them..about true love for people... sorely lacking among our faith.

On the subject of T.D. Jakes… I don’t have a problem using these well known names to open the door to conversation and discussion… and that I am not alone in my beliefs…. Recently in one of our meetings I mentioned that Phillips, Craig and Dean is coming to our town to hold a concert at the church where three of our ladies attend. I asked them if they realized that PCD were raised in the same as I was… I just explained it was also the reason why our local radio station won’t play PCD music is because the doctrine of believing God is one and not adopting the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons and baptism in Jesus name. They are upset at the discrimination... they accept me just as I accept them as believers.. and yes, we are believers...

I for one am tired of everyone arguing over nit picking details of terminology… I plan to teach Jesus as I know him…I want him to be completely revealed to them just as he was to me…

I feel the the Apostolic church in general has alienated themselves from Christians serving God the only way they have been taught… they are good, faithful Christians… devout….living for God with pure hearts… I plan to take this gospel to every Cornelius out there I can… and feel that Apostolics need to realize like Peter… God is the judge of all people… don’t write people off, because God does have people sitting on the pews of non Apostolic churches.. He intends for us to share this gospel more fully… build upon what is already been taught.

Good words. I agree with your outlook on the trinity. I was taught to reject it. I think that it is easier to teach to ignore/reject it as a whole instead of teaching how to accept it. Let me explain. I know pastors that will not go into teaching the true aspects of the trinity. Some find it easier to not even go there. The truth as you have stated is that 'Trinity' is 3-in-one. But I think that most apostolic teachers and preachers have perverted it into a damnable thing. The truth is that Jesus is God. The HG is God. God is God. We see Jesus as all of these. Which He is, but the fact is that most people tend to forget He has more than one office. Thus Jesus is a trinity in the sense that there is three offices F,S,HG in Him. Just like I am a f,s, and brother. I think that the oneness church has taught so much against the 'Trinity' that most are confused what it really is. Most trinitarians do not even have it right. But what can you expect when you have different opinions of men that teach it how they want to.

To your point about Jakes and others; I have not problem with any of them. Most of these men or women do not want fellowship to be broken because of doctrine. I have said it before doctrine is our foundation. Just like in home building foundations are the most important part, but that is no what is first noticed on a home. People look at the exterior and the 'extras' and foundation is the least discussed thing. I feel foundation is important and I might not go to a church without an apostolic foundation. I might not live in a home without a good foundation, but I am not going to stop hanging out with my friends because their homes foundation is cracked. Make sense? I these men and women have opened doors for the ones to follow. It is now easier for us to fellowship because of what these have done. IMO

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

Lisa,

You are an amazing woman with a powerful insight. Your special ministry is crucial and biblical. Keep up the good work!

Carl

thank you.. the more I read the Word...the more I want to share. I had a co worker receive the revelation and was baptized in Jesus name a few years back... she led me to this group of women meeting to study from area churches.

It was after meeting with them for a few weeks I knew what I had been called to do... I can identify with them far better than those in deep sin...I was raised on a pew... I've had such a desire to work for God.. I feel I found my place.

After my kids are grown, I can see myself attending and getting involved in one of these local mega churches so that I might get to know more people, and share what I know through friendships and study... unless I get kicked out someday. lol

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Good words. I agree with your outlook on the trinity. I was taught to reject it. I think that it is easier to teach to ignore/reject it as a whole instead of teaching how to accept it. Let me explain. I know pastors that will not go into teaching the true aspects of the trinity. Some find it easier to not even go there. The truth as you have stated is that 'Trinity' is 3-in-one. But I think that most apostolic teachers and preachers have perverted it into a damnable thing. The truth is that Jesus is God. The HG is God. God is God. We see Jesus as all of these. Which He is, but the fact is that most people tend to forget He has more than one office. Thus Jesus is a trinity in the sense that there is three offices F,S,HG in Him. Just like I am a f,s, and brother. I think that the oneness church has taught so much against the 'Trinity' that most are confused what it really is. Most trinitarians do not even have it right. But what can you expect when you have different opinions of men that teach it how they want to.

To your point about Jakes and others; I have not problem with any of them. Most of these men or women do not want fellowship to be broken because of doctrine. I have said it before doctrine is our foundation. Just like in home building foundations are the most important part, but that is no what is first noticed on a home. People look at the exterior and the 'extras' and foundation is the least discussed thing. I feel foundation is important and I might not go to a church without an apostolic foundation. I might not live in a home without a good foundation, but I am not going to stop hanging out with my friends because their homes foundation is cracked. Make sense? I these men and women have opened doors for the ones to follow. It is now easier for us to fellowship because of what these have done. IMO

good way of thinking of it...

I mentioned above about attending and getting involved... not because I believe their way of teaching but to get to know people. I currently attend two churches... and because of interest of my one daughter into black Gospel worship and music... going to start visiting another.

I just want to see churches changed... and although raised in UPC, unfortuately I'm not the greatest fan of everything with it...and would love to see churches without some of the cultural hang ups I grew up with....focusing more on the Word of God and less on pleasing man through politics or other means.

I had a friend here on this forum tell me he could attend a non upc/Apostolic church too...but sure couldn't pay tithe there... I probably would have some difficulty there too... and absolutely would never raise my kids outside a church who didn't teach the Apostolic doctrine.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

good way of thinking of it...

I mentioned above about attending and getting involved... not because I believe their way of teaching but to get to know people. I currently attend two churches... and because of interest of my one daughter into black Gospel worship and music... going to start visiting another.

I just want to see churches changed... and although raised in UPC, unfortuately I'm not the greatest fan of everything with it...and would love to see churches without some of the cultural hang ups I grew up with....focusing more on the Word of God and less on pleasing man through politics or other means.

I had a friend here on this forum tell me he could attend a non upc/Apostolic church too...but sure couldn't pay tithe there... I probably would have some difficulty there too... and absolutely would never raise my kids outside a church who didn't teach the Apostolic doctrine.

I believe the apostles doctrine is right and true. I will choose to raise my daugther/future kids this way. With that being said I want to make sure that they see it for themselves. I want my kid(s) to believe it the way I do, but not at the expense of them learning for themselves. I do not want my daugther or any others following it just because I did. I want them to know more, learn more, fellowship more. I was not raised UPC but was raised ALJC. I have been associated with the UPC for 7+yrs. I am not a fan of alot of what they go by, but agree with baptism and HGB. I was always a 3-stepper and more of a PAJC outlook. But after I seached the Bible and prayed about it myself I see things differently. I am more of the PCI mindset though I do not have a problem with 3-steppers or anything. I just want my children to have a serious walk with God that is not built on mine or their mothers theology. It is our job to train them, but once they are old enough to chose correctly. If I have done my job then they will see it themselves and want to follow it. I feel the problem with today's generation is that they have not been taught the Bible is supreme. It is the final word. Because of such people get tossed around by every wind of doctrine and get taught man made things that are not salvational, IMO.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I believe the apostles doctrine is right and true. I will choose to raise my daugther/future kids this way. With that being said I want to make sure that they see it for themselves. I want my kid(s) to believe it the way I do, but not at the expense of them learning for themselves. I do not want my daugther or any others following it just because I did. I want them to know more, learn more, fellowship more. I was not raised UPC but was raised ALJC. I have been associated with the UPC for 7+yrs. I am not a fan of alot of what they go by, but agree with baptism and HGB. I was always a 3-stepper and more of a PAJC outlook. But after I seached the Bible and prayed about it myself I see things differently. I am more of the PCI mindset though I do not have a problem with 3-steppers or anything. I just want my children to have a serious walk with God that is not built on mine or their mothers theology. It is our job to train them, but once they are old enough to chose correctly. If I have done my job then they will see it themselves and want to follow it. I feel the problem with today's generation is that they have not been taught the Bible is supreme. It is the final word. Because of such people get tossed around by every wind of doctrine and get taught man made things that are not salvational, IMO.

I feel the same way... I want them to see and understand for themselves.

When I look back as a child... it was my father's walk with God and his love for the Word of God that made me want to know the God of my father... I saw something I wanted... It took me a while (although was baptized/HG filled at the age of 8) to really find what I was looking for... I keep striving to know him more... and still do. I want my kids to know it is real...

I dear friend of mine that just passed away preached with him many years ago in West Virginia, and in fact went to school with him. He is Oneness and Jesus' name, however, he associates with anyone willing to associate with him.

Why the attitude about him?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by AnotherTrave

I dear friend of mine that just passed away preached with him many years ago in West Virginia, and in fact went to school with him. He is Oneness and Jesus' name, however, he associates with anyone willing to associate with him.
Why the attitude about him?

There you have it, right there! NOT OUR SMOKE, NO SMOKE.