Saved WithOut The Holy Ghost ?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Sam

I would not say the Samaritans were not saved and did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within until the Apostles came down from the Jerusalem Church. I would say that they were saved when they believed (verse 12). It is recorded in verse 14 that they had received the Word (Jesus). Because they believed and received the Word/Jesus, Philip baptized them (verse 12). We see in a later account that Philip required a profession/confession of faith before he would baptize someone (verses 36 and 37) because he wanted to ascertain that they had been saved or converted first (just as John the Baptist insisted on repentance before he would baptize in water Matthew 3:7-8). In my opinion these folks were saved because they believed and received Jesus (the Word). Then as a result of their faith they were baptized in water. Even though they were saved and had Jesus living within, and were water baptized they had not received the experience that is called by various terms such as:

receiving the Spirit,
being filled with the Spirit,
the Spirit falling upon them,
the Spirit coming upon them,
being endued with power,
being baptized in the Spirit,
receiving the promise of the Father,
being filled with the Spirit

OK Sam, this is a bit long but bear with me on this…

I'm seeing a lot of opinion and conjecture in your post, Sam. But let's try to stick to what the book says.

Originally Posted by Sam

I would not say the Samaritans were not saved and did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within until the Apostles came down from the Jerusalem Church. I would say that they were saved when they believed (verse 12).

You "would say" they were saved? OK. But does the scripture say that?

Answer is "no" .

What it does say is that they received the word and were baptized. (Acts 8, v. 6, and 12) . "Receiving" the word, (i.e. accepting/believing the word) does not constitute salvation in and of itself.

It says plainly that the Holy Ghost had not yet come upon them. (v. 15-16)

The Word tells us that he who does not have the Spirit "is none of His" (Rom 8:9) or as the NIV renders it :
"if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ"
And if it is by one Spirit that we are baptized into the body (1 Cor 12:13), then a person is not even in the body of Christ (i.e. "not saved") if they haven't yet received the the Spirit. There's no way to get around that. It might not be popular to teach that, but it's scriptural!

So in light of Rom 8:9 & 1 Cor 12:13 on what basis then (apart from just your feelings), do you assert that the Samaritans in Acts 8 were saved (at verse 12) when the bible tells us they had not received the Holy Spirit?

Originally Posted by Sam

We see in a later account that Philip required a profession/confession of faith before he would baptize someone (verses 36 and 37) because he wanted to ascertain that they had been saved or converted first

Did the eunuch say that? Or are you forcing that meaning into the text?
What did the eunuch say?

Lets look at that...verse 36-38:
36...the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
You are totally reading into that verse things that are not stated.
The only thing Philip asked was if the man believed. He wanted a profession of faith.

(The 2 things the scripture has ever shown to be required before baptism were 1/ believing/...or a "confession of faith" showing belief, as we see here in 8:36-38, and of course 2/ repentance [see acts 2:38] )

Did it say Philip required the man to be "saved, or converted" before baptism? No. You're saying that. (And you're probably reading that meaning into the scripture because you feel that believing is synonymous with salvation). All Philip was requiring was the confession of faith. Thats all that passage says.

On that note, we see that Jesus said
"he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16).
This indicates to us that baptism is part of the salvation process, not something that comes after salvation. So Philip wouldn't be trying..

Originally Posted by Sam

to ascertain that they had been saved or converted first

before baptizing the man, since baptism isn't something that comes after salvation. NOTICE that Jesus didn't say "he that believes and is saved shall be baptized ...(which one might expect, if baptism truly came after salvation, as some claim).

See the distinction there?

Originally Posted by Sam

In my opinion these folks were saved because they believed and received Jesus (the Word). Then as a result of their faith they were baptized in water. Even though they were saved and had Jesus living within, and were water baptized they had not received the experience..

There you go again.
In your opinion they were saved. You seem to rely on your opinion a lot with this. How about if we just stick to the Word?

Originally Posted by Sam

In my opinion these folks were saved because they believed and received Jesus (the Word). Then as a result of their faith they were baptized in water. Even though they were saved and had Jesus living within, and were water baptized they had not received the experience..

So again you state that "they were saved", but you just stated you relied on your opinion in reaching the conclusion that they were saved! So now you basically continue to go further on developing your thought, based on something that you yourself stated is just your opinion! Sorry brother, that does not qualify as "rightly dividing the word". Not.Even.Close.

Originally Posted by Sam

... were saved and had Jesus living within, and were water baptized they had not received the experience..

(See previous response). They "had Jesus living within" based on what scripture? I know its your opinion they were saved and had Jesus living within. You've already let us know that. But again, you continue to build your case on a foundation that is based on opinion, not solid scripture.

Originally Posted by Sam

Even though they were saved and had Jesus living within, and were water baptized they had not received the experience that is called by various terms such as:

receiving the Spirit,
being filled with the Spirit,
the Spirit falling upon them,
the Spirit coming upon them,
being endued with power,
being baptized in the Spirit,
receiving the promise of the Father,
being filled with the Spirit

Okay!! Thank you, Sam.
You're actually helping me make my point here.

Clearly, (A )these terms you just listed all refer to the same single experience. Lets start with that...

And... (B) we know from scripture that receiving "the Holy Spirit", is the same as receiving the "Spirit of Christ", otherwise referred to as "the Spirit of your Father", or simply, "the Spirit". OK, basic stuff -- (there's one Spirit).
So...

That being said...

(1)... If... "he that has not the Spirit of Christ is none of his" (Rom 8:9) , then ...

a...the Samaritans in Acts 8 were "none of His" before they received the Holy Ghost, which didn't take place until verse 17

b... they were not in the body of Christ , since believers are baptized into the body by that one Spirit.

c... to put it simply, they were NOT saved [before verse 17] because there is no salvation without having the Spirit of God (see Rom 8:9 again), which we can all see they had not yet received up to this point.

and (2)... If (as Acts 8:15-16 says) they had not received the Holy Spirit, (aka the Spirit of Christ) , one cannot rightfully say "they had Jesus living within them" , since Jesus comes to live in us by way of His Spirit. The bible makes it abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Jesus Christ are that one Spirit.

Therefore, no Holy Spirit=No Spirit of Jesus Christ= No "Jesus living in their hearts"!! Its that simple.

Thus, it is a gross error to teach that a person who repents and believes in Jesus is saved before they "receive", /or "are baptized in"the Holy Spirit. There is nothing scriptural to support the idea/teaching that "Jesus comes and is living in " somebody before they receive the Spirit of Christ).

Essentially such a teaching would presuppose that the believer who comes to God receives a "first blessing" (initial coming of Jesus into their heart).. and then later a "second blessing" (i.e. the outpouring, infilling, baptism of the Spirit). There are many who teach this, and it serves as a nice convenient doctrine that makes a lot of people feel good, but its not supported by scripture, and it's SIMPLY. NOT. TRUE..