Agenda Driven or Accepting of Diversity?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Sister?

Of course. I knew that. Sorry.

The only difference in the PCI stance and that of my own, which may be somewhere between the PCI's and the that of the PAJC is that I do not believe anyone can be saved "to eternity" without obeying the whole Gospel including Baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost when they have the light on it. The PCI stance is that they could be saved to eternity short of it even if they DO have the light of it.

I know, I know this slight difference causes me to be misunderstood by both the PCI leaning group and the PAJC leaning group too. It is my position and understanding of the Word of God that give me peace of mind concerning the many martyrs that died trusting in and loving Jesus, never having denied their faith in him.

The other day, I told of a true story about some martyrs in Russia. It was discredited as an urban myth. So, I got down my Fox Book of Martyrs and begun reading. I was so moved as I read the most heart breaking stories of faithful men and women who gave up their lives for the love of Jesus that was deep in their heart. Again, I was moved to tears as I examined my ownself questioning if I could stand up under the same tortune and death. I wept as I told the Lord that it was my intentions to have the same resolve as His love abides in me as deeply as it did in them.

But, in it all, "Sirs, we would see Jesus." Sister, I only want to see Jesus in you.

Seeing Jesus is without a doubt the best way of looking at people whether they are saved or not. Maybe you should have this in your signature line so when you and I disagree on some aspect of doctrine, I can read that and temper my responses to you!

I've read some of your posts on the light doctrine but don't recall you giving scriptural proofs. I'm interested in knowing what verses in the word of God makes you believe the light doctrine. If you don't have time to explain it, maybe you know of a link to the teaching. Thanks

Oh, one other thing, what exactly do you mean by "when they have the light on it". Some folks have heard about Jesus name baptism and speaking in tongues when one receives the Holy Spirit but is hearing about it considered "having the light" or is believing in it "having the light"? I had heard of Jesus Christ all of my life but I didn't believe in Him until my early twenties. Did I have the light before I repented?

[Sherri]

Apprehended, I just want to say that I appreciate everything you have written on this thread. Your attitude is godly and your writings are anointed.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by rrford

One defines tolerance based upon what they have been taught and indoctrinated to be tolerant of. The Pharisees had incredible intolerance but it was due in large part ot being raised and trained in a system that promoted exclusivity in the name of a relationship with God. They had the right God but the wrong approach. When the approach is wrong the relationship with God will never stay right.

Even the most rigid of standards need some tolerance built into them. Doctrine is not a standard. It is a doctrine. Doctrines need not allow for tolerance because they come from God and are set for time and eternity. Lifestyle, practice and interraction really do not rise to the level of doctrine per se, and therefore need tolerances built into them.

Engineers have what they call "acceptable tolerances" built into what they design and manufacture. So long as the tolerance does not endanger the safety of the consumer then it is an acceptable tolerance. So, redefining our tolerances is a good thing. So long as the difference does not endanger the spiritual well-being of the believer then I have a good bit of room for tolerance. But if our differences affect eternity, then the tolerance has left it's acceptable level and I move on for the sake of safety.

Today's Verse of The Day-

My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
Proverbs 1:10


How do YOU intrepret it?

(not direct to RRFord, who I am glad to see post here again- meant for anyone still interested in fair balanced posting with no agendas)

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

It saddens me that you have either hidden this view from me for a long time, or changed to this view in the last little while. IF one can be saved "to eternity" without baptism in Jesus Name if they never hear of it, it would behove us not to preach it ever again to ANY group that does not believe it that way, as by doing so we doom them that do not accept it to hell.

IF Jesus Name baptism is not necessary for salvation "to eternity" for the unknowing person (even though God no longer winks at ignorance) then it is not necessary for anyone. Either the plan of salvation is firm and solid (a clear note) or we need to stop preaching it as truth.

Don't be sad my dearest friend...

Be of good cheer. I am building a shed right now, but I wll be back to take my time to give you a careful explanation that will surely gladen your sanctified heart. I take my breaks now and then to come in for a drink of water etc., and check in on what is happening here.

I have not changed my mind about any of these things but once it is fully clear what the Word teaches in this regard, I am sure that you will be happy, as the Word offers hope and makes glad the hopeful. It is still imperative to fully obey God and to walk in the light lest the blood of Jesus is rendered void.

I just need a little more time to thoughtfully and fully answer your question and to cheer your heart. You will be happy with the answer.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Seeing Jesus is without a doubt the best way of looking at people whether they are saved or not. Maybe you should have this in your signature line so when you and I disagree on some aspect of doctrine, I can read that and temper my responses to you!

I've read some of your posts on the light doctrine but don't recall you giving scriptural proofs. I'm interested in knowing what verses in the word of God makes you believe the light doctrine. If you don't have time to explain it, maybe you know of a link to the teaching. Thanks

Oh, one other thing, what exactly do you mean by "when they have the light on it". Some folks have heard about Jesus name baptism and speaking in tongues when one receives the Holy Spirit but is hearing about it considered "having the light" or is believing in it "having the light"? I had heard of Jesus Christ all of my life but I didn't believe in Him until my early twenties. Did I have the light before I repented?

Please read my answer to Matthew. Your objection seems to be the same as his. I will be happy to give scripture to fully explain those wonderful things that I see in the Word of God. I am building a shed and only check in when I come in for a break. But, I will indeed answer with scripture, my understanding of the Word of God that gives HOPE.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Apprehended, I just want to say that I appreciate everything you have written on this thread. Your attitude is godly and your writings are anointed.

Thank you Sister Cupples...

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

Today's Verse of The Day-

My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
Proverbs 1:10


How do YOU intrepret it?

(not direct to RRFord, who I am glad to see post here again- meant for anyone still interested in fair balanced posting with no agendas)

I am sure that Potipher's wife enticed Joseph. But, he did not consent. He ran.

When I was a child, I started running with a gang of boys in the neighborhood that started some mischief. I did not consent and disassociated myself.

Sinners in the church (some supposed saints) would like to begin church disention, though there may be some basis of merit, do not consent.

That would be my interpretation.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Amen. Glad someone was able to see what I was talking about.

Remembering the Word ask the question, "how can two walk together except they agree," does not imply that they must agree on every single minute item of insignifance. Agenda driven dogmatist use those minute items to divide the body of Christ in the presence of pride.

I visited with and preached for Billy Cole in Thailand when he was there. We had blessed fellowship together for serveral days. I believe it was as much blessed for him as it was for me. We discussed many, many things from the Word which gave me a insight on some of the things that he believed at the time.

While there, we went swimming at his retreat down on the Gulf of Siam. He told me that after being in Thailand for a very long time, he had no fellowship with another Christian of any sort as most of his time was spent in the hinterlands of that country. He had become starved for some sort of fellowship. (Kind of hard to believe since we have so much of it here) Nevertheless, he had become so starved that when he happened upon an old Greek Orthodox priest, he was so happy to at least find someone who believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he fell on that old priests shoulder and wept. I've never forgotten that. The only, absolutely ONLY basis of that fellowship for that brief moment was that they both rejoiced in the knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Imgagine THAT.

That illustration is far afield from the original thought of this thread, nevertheless it underscores the idea that there are basis on which another christian and yourself, as you noted, can have good fellowship but for the obnoxious personality trait of the dogmatist.

You find dogmatist in every camp. They come in all stripes, shades and sizes. They give no latitude. Little do they understand that we have fellowship with Jesus Christ found in each other. When I see another Christian, I listen for the voice of the Spirit rather than the voice of the person himself. The voice of the Spirit is often...yea, all too often obscured by the voice of the dogmatist who inisist upon his minute point over which he is willing to divide the body of Christ. With that understanding, I was able to have sweet fellowship with Brother Reynolds, the AOG preacher. The fellowship was with Christ IN HIM.

Hard spirits are a source of great grief in the heart of Christ since it is so much the element of pride in that personality. Pride of the agenda driven dogmatist lifts one up just a notch above his bretheren. Often they do not recognize what they are doing. While it is the motivation of the dogmatist to seperate fellowship with his bretheren over the mundane and insignificant, the Spirit of Christ will break fellowship with such arrogance. The dirty little secret is, there is a great cavern of spiritual failures in such a one. If it were possible to pull back the curtain to see behind the veil of that personality, the darkness and horror would be shocking. They are far from living a life of victory in Jesus.

Should I ever see you, Crack I will not seek to have fellowship over some of the DUMB things that you believe, but I will seek to have fellowship with the Spirit of Christ in my brother for whom Christ died, in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells. Having found that, I will scarcely remember those far out things that you believe and we will share the joys of knowing Him and the fellowship of His hope and promise, while you overlook some of the dumb things that I believe. That fellowship in Christ will not be broken by our differences in opinions.

Love you, bro. Crack.

Thanks for a great post, Brother it shows great depth and the spirit of Jesus, I would not hesitate a moment to fellowship with you. As I have said many times, though I sincerely believe God's intention is to eventually bring every member of His creation to redemption, I am not so arrogant to believe that I could not be wrong. My confidence does not cause me to separate myself from fellow believers in Christ.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Please read my answer to Matthew. Your objection seems to be the same as his. I will be happy to give scripture to fully explain those wonderful things that I see in the Word of God. I am building a shed and only check in when I come in for a break. But, I will indeed answer with scripture, my understanding of the Word of God that gives HOPE.

If you're done with your shed, would you mind explaining the light doctrine from scripture?

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

If you're done with your shed, would you mind explaining the light doctrine from scripture?

I have been praying about it because I realize the heavy implication may have an everlasting affect on someone that I would not want to be hurt by something said but misunderstood. I want to be careful and spiritually thoughtful considering all things.

Look for my answer one day this coming week even though I am going to have to be in Houston, Shreveport and Jackson Miss all this coming week plus some points in between.