JEWS! - Page 4

mfblume · #31 02-02-2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It's a part of the over all Jewish Culture. It is a part of their Jewishness. They don't have to keep it, but to forsake it completely presents a stumbling block to others....it's a great witnessing tool to other Jews.

Why do you think the Jewish believers in the bible kept it? Even James does not seem ready to tell them they need to stop

Converted Jews (A Jew is a Judaist, so once a Christian, he/she is no longer a Jew -- it's not a race but religious adherence -- which is how gentiles can become JEWS by joining their religion) are no longer Jews. It is not natural birthing, since Jew is not a race. He/she is solely a religious adherent.

So the rituals are not cultural but COVENANTAL. We need to remove the thought of Jews being a race. And then we can understand it. Since a new covenant is here, the jewishness of the OLD COVENANT, and not culture, is gone.

Early believers who were formerly Jews actually thought they HAD TO continue in the rituals. Paul even had problems explaining to them otherwise. Paul was the first to get revelation about the issue. He fought with many believers in the church. They would not accept his revelation. And the temple destruction proved Paul correct.

Mike Conn wrote a great book about that called the Heresy of the Judaizers.

mfblume · #32 02-02-2008, 02:46 PM

From JUDAISM 101 - A Jewish website: http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

Quote:

Are Jews a Race?

In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.

But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.

But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.

Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).

Being "Jewish" is not a cultural thing, unless you realize that their culture was OLD COVENANT life. Since there has been a change of covenants, I would say God no longer wills these things in their lives.

pelathais · #33 02-02-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev

Much of the N.T. was written to and for Jews. What does it say?

WoW! After starting off with a string of several post where he was so glaringly wrong because his opinion differed from mine; the Rev has made a stunning come back by showing an almost prescient ability to agree with me.

(Either that, or if we both just kept talking it was inevitable that we would eventually agree about something!).

Revelationist · #34 02-02-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

Does GOD break a covenant?
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Bro. Alex, do you believe in "Once Saved always Saved?"

mfblume · #35 02-02-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Does GOD break a covenant?

No, people do, and God CHANGES which covenant is in effect or not.

Revelationist · #36 02-02-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Converted Jews (A Jew is a Judaist, so once a Christian, he/she is no longer a Jew -- it's not a race but religious adherence -- which is how gentiles can become JEWS by joining their religion) are no longer Jews. It is not natural birthing, since Jew is not a race. He/she is solely a religious adherent.
Mike Conn wrote a great book about that called the Heresy of the Judaizers.

Just like a Baptist becomes a Baptist....

Rev · #37 02-02-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

WoW! After starting off with a string of several post where he was so glaringly wrong because his opinion differed from mine; the Rev has made a stunning come back by showing an almost prescient ability to agree with me.

(Either that, or if we both just kept talking it was inevitable that we would eventually agree about something!).

(Either that, or if we both just kept talking it was inevitable that we would eventually agree about something!).

I think that's it!

Revelationist · #38 02-02-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

So where in the NT does it tell us that the OT is done away with? This is a common misunderstanding in Christian circles. So, which "law" of the OT makes folks feel uncomfortable to follow?

The 10 commandments are for ALL....including the Sabbath.

I don't recall saying that it had been done away with, what I said that it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. I think people fail to understand the word fulfilled... If you own a buisness and your sent a order to fill, when you put the last item in the box, you have fulfilled the order.

Praxeas · #39 02-02-2008, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Converted Jews (A Jew is a Judaist, so once a Christian, he/she is no longer a Jew -- it's not a race but religious adherence -- which is how gentiles can become JEWS by joining their religion) are no longer Jews. It is not natural birthing, since Jew is not a race. He/she is solely a religious adherent.

For Jews themselves it's not just a religious adherent. They have history upon history of being a Jew...even Atheists Jews call themselves Jews. So for many their religious identity is part of who and what they are born as.

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So the rituals are not cultural but COVENANTAL.

That does not prevent it from becoming part of their culture. Their culture is very much influenced by their religious beliefs and customs.

Quote:

We need to remove the thought of Jews being a race. And then we can understand it. Since a new covenant is here, the jewishness of the OLD COVENANT, and not culture, is gone.

AGain that is irrelevant to the discussion. THEY view themselves as a historical people who are BORN into Jewish families. It's not just religion. God made his covenant with a people...not with a religion. Who and What they are today and in the past are Jews. They are the Jewish people. Whether or not you agree is not even the issue. That is how they see themselves. Religion is part of culture.. That is why John said "He came to his own and his own received Him not"...they were his people. Even then they were not keeping the law...they were His people.

For Jews who are STILL Jews and do NOT believe there is a New Covenant the Old Covenant is still relevant and still a deep part of Jewish culture today.

Quote:

Early believers who were formerly Jews actually thought they HAD TO continue in the rituals. Paul even had problems explaining to them otherwise. Paul was the first to get revelation about the issue. He fought with many believers in the church. They would not accept his revelation. And the temple destruction proved Paul correct.

Lets go back to the verses I posted Mike....Paul was asked by James to take these Jewish believers to the Temple and show everyone that he is NOT teaching them to forsake Moses....great time for Paul to stand by his newfound principles.....

And again Acts 15....the Jews wanted the Gentiles to Keep the law...the decision was not "none of us should keep it"...but rather "The Gentiles should not keep it EXCEPT FOR...." and he lists some and the reason was simply because Moses was read in every city. Jews kept the law still. It would have been a great time to say "none of us need to", but because it was so ingrained into the Jewish psyche and culture they never told them they should forsake Moses. Paul never taught to forsake Moses. He taught keeping Moses will not save you. Even Paul himself had taken a vow and was to undergo a Jewish purification ritual.

It was a part of who they were. It had become not just a set of laws but a part of their culture and national identity. To utterly forsake it all would have made witnessing to Jews totally impossible. Even then the rumors were that Paul taught to forsake Moses. That made it harder and harder to reach Jews..

Jewish converts should keep the law IMO and go to Synagogue and witness to other Jews until they are kicked out. They should accept Christ but not forsake Moses so they can keep winning those souls

Quote:

Mike Conn wrote a great book about that called the Heresy of the Judaizers.

I think we are way off the issue here Mike. Or perhaps you don't understand my point.

Praxeas · #40 02-02-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

From JUDAISM 101 - A Jewish website: http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

Being "Jewish" is not a cultural thing, unless you realize that their culture was OLD COVENANT life. Since there has been a change of covenants, I would say God no longer wills these things in their lives.

The Law has become a part of their culture. Being Jewish by birth, by national identity for many those rituals and practices are a part of that.