Kingdom Baptist article on oneness

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

early methodist long before the 20th century also made "noises" and exhibited other things commonly associated with Pentecostals

This is a strawman. I have never read any Pentecostal say the intellect or mind were evil. *1

And this quote is suspect. He quotes a book on the AOG? Gives the author but WHO actually said these words? This is an antagonistic witness claiming OPs said this, but does not give the name of who said it. *2


He is misrepresenting the view that the "us" were angels, which I see ALL Trinitarians and even OPs that don't want to objectively consider this view say. As you said the angels WERE present. And angels might just have a nature similiar to man and God seeing that they are spirits, God IS a Spirit and we all humans are body soul and spirit *3


Exactly...and this verse never said 'Godhead', 'person' or any such trinitarian theological ideas.


lol...exactly...on the right hand of God is not figuratively yet he is sitting ON God's throne?


Actually in Daniel we have the Ancient of Days and we have "the Son of Man" and only ONE Of them is called God...how does this support the Trinity?


I don't think Trinitarians have proven the Spirit is a distinct person from God or Jesus. If that is the case who is the Spirit of the Father or Christ mentioned in Rom 8:9? John says the Father is Spirit. It does not make any sense ontologically to say the Spirit can't be blasphemed but the Father and Son can if all three are equally God


Exactly no Trinity. No "person". No "Unity in the godhead". In fact MOST depictions are of God and His son Jesus


OPs don't deny a distinction either. We deny they are distinct Divine Persons *4

*1 I have never heard any one say it just like that, but I have heard OP folks say stuff pretty close to this.

*2 I have read this quote before. There are many OP's who make statements like this quite emphatically.

*3 Why would any Christian want to consider such a view of that scripture. We're made in the image of God, not angels.

*4 There have been many OP's that I have met that do deny a distinction. I am reminded of an altar call song, "Come to Jesus, just as you are. Come to Jesus, just as you are. Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Son. Jesus is the Holy Ghost. All three are One. Come to Jesus, just as you are."

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by 1399

*1 I have never heard any one say it just like that, but I have heard OP folks say stuff pretty close to this.

I've heard Trinitarians say the same. It's still a logical fallacy

*2 I have read this quote before. There are many OP's who make statements like this quite emphatically.

I would like to see that. I have yet to hear an OP worth their weight in salt deny the word as it pertains to baptism in Jesus name. Just saying it is a revelation is not the same as what this AOG person said

*3 Why would any Christian want to consider such a view of that scripture. We're made in the image of God, not angels.

Thank you for confirming my point. See both OPs and Trinitarians refuse to think it through objectively and just go on snippets rather than ask to hear the WHOLE view. For your info, saying the US are angels is NOT NOT NOT saying the angels created us. Yes we are made in GOD's image BUT if God made angels before us and they share a similiar nature as God then it would not be a stretch for God to speak to the angels and say "our image"

*4 There have been many OP's that I have met that do deny a distinction. I am reminded of an altar call song, "Come to Jesus, just as you are. Come to Jesus, just as you are. Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Son. Jesus is the Holy Ghost. All three are One. Come to Jesus, just as you are."

That song you are quoting does not tell me there is no distinction between Father and Son. It tells me they believe they are the same person (Jesus).

No OP denies there is a distinction between Father and Son.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Jason

We do not embrace Tritheism or Polytheism. We do not worship three "gods." We worship ONE GOD in three Persons. This is the mysterious doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. Tri-unity) taught in the Bible. But Oneness Pentecostalism is a doctrine of devils. Let us sincerely pray for the dear people blinded by this confused mess.

What think ye?

a doctrine of devilsm huh?
(sigh)

Not only an untrue statement, but extremely harsh, to say the last .

Of course,there are some apologists here on AFF who seem to think OP's are the harsh evil meanies, and Trinitarians are the cuddly-wuddly teddy bears.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

They got this part right.... at least by some Oneness Pentecostals.

Oneness Pentecostals answer almost every Scripture verse by stating that it cannot refer to three "persons," since that would make three Gods. This is a straw man. It argues against the Trinity by redefining "person" in a way that MUST MEAN "separate God". But we do not define "Person" as meaning "separate God." The Bible teaches that "God" is one in three.

Sorry, you can say what you want. Everytime you get down to it, it becomes three God's. Sorry but you can make philisophical arguments that are not based on the Bible all you want but the simple fact is. Three Gods!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Sorry, you can say what you want. Everytime you get down to it, it becomes three God's. Sorry but you can make philisophical arguments that are not based on the Bible all you want but the simple fact is. Three Gods!

So then are you saying that part of the article was correct? Is that how you explain Trinitarian scriptures?

[Firewind]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

And this quote is suspect. He quotes a book on the AOG? Gives the author but WHO actually said these words? This is an antagonistic witness claiming OPs said this, but does not give the name of who said it.

This quote has appeared in several books, and is attributed to Howard A. Goss.

There are issues regarding the accuracy of the quote, discussed by Thomas Fudge in a footnote in Christianity Without the Cross (p 65).

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I've heard Trinitarians say the same. It's still a logical fallacy


I would like to see that. I have yet to hear an OP worth their weight in salt deny the word as it pertains to baptism in Jesus name. Just saying it is a revelation is not the same as what this AOG person said


Thank you for confirming my point. See both OPs and Trinitarians refuse to think it through objectively and just go on snippets rather than ask to hear the WHOLE view. For your info, saying the US are angels is NOT NOT NOT saying the angels created us. Yes we are made in GOD's image BUT if God made angels before us and they share a similiar nature as God then it would not be a stretch for God to speak to the angels and say "our image"


That song you are quoting does not tell me there is no distinction between Father and Son. It tells me they believe they are the same person (Jesus).

No OP denies there is a distinction between Father and Son.

So if the Father and the Son are the same person, how then can there be a distinction? The same person, but different personalities explanation borders on modalism-- which we do not subscribe to.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I've heard Trinitarians say the same. It's still a logical fallacy


I would like to see that. I have yet to hear an OP worth their weight in salt deny the word as it pertains to baptism in Jesus name. Just saying it is a revelation is not the same as what this AOG person said


Thank you for confirming my point. See both OPs and Trinitarians refuse to think it through objectively and just go on snippets rather than ask to hear the WHOLE view. For your info, saying the US are angels is NOT NOT NOT saying the angels created us. Yes we are made in GOD's image BUT if God made angels before us and they share a similiar nature as God then it would not be a stretch for God to speak to the angels and say "our image"


That song you are quoting does not tell me there is no distinction between Father and Son. It tells me they believe they are the same person (Jesus).

No OP denies there is a distinction between Father and Son.

Yes. It would be an illogical stretch because at that point you are adding to the Word of God. We are made in the image of God, not God and the angels.

[Jason B]

thanks for everyones input, and kind words. Specially prax, I always enjoy you thoughts on these things.

The original email I sent the church was replied to within 10 minutes, as of right now (nearly 24 hours later) I am still waiting. I will post the reply if I get one.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by 1399

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So if the Father and the Son are the same person, how then can there be a distinction? The same person, but different personalities explanation borders on modalism-- which we do not subscribe to.

Distinction of nature. Distinction of being. Distinction of mind and will