Thanks, this helps me a great deal too... I've been very frustrated that some of my questions and conversations were not taken seriously in the past, this helps me to understand why.
Unfortunately, for those of us who question some of the more basic things, that means both sides are wasting their time discussing issues where one side is not willing to think outside of a certain "safe" area... (because to them the matter is settled without any thought even required - kinda like not questioning a default setting when the default setting works just fine for that person) and means that I have been correct in backing off my postings over the past couple of years on these forums.
There are many things that I have questioned my entire life, and felt that no one was willing to try to answer them... now I find that it is not that they are not willing to answer them, it is more that they do not accept the question as valid in the first place... so there is no point in trying to answer them.
I believe this new understanding is going to help me to finally let go of some things, so thank you for that. It doesn't change the fact that I have questions, just that I'm not looking in the right place for answers.... and it is probably best that I move on. This isn't a goodbye post... more like an "I concede that the answers I am looking for will not be found here" post... so will stop asking those questions here.
At some point I passed the "I'm one of you but am just trying to understand" point, and have moved more towards the "He's not one of us or else he would not be asking these questions in the first place" point.
Brad, do you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God?
__________________ "Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
Thanks, this helps me a great deal too... I've been very frustrated that some of my questions and conversations were not taken seriously in the past, this helps me to understand why.
Unfortunately, for those of us who question some of the more basic things, that means both sides are wasting their time discussing issues where one side is not willing to think outside of a certain "safe" area... (because to them the matter is settled without any thought even required - kinda like not questioning a default setting when the default setting works just fine for that person) and means that I have been correct in backing off my postings over the past couple of years on these forums.
There are many things that I have questioned my entire life, and felt that no one was willing to try to answer them... now I find that it is not that they are not willing to answer them, it is more that they do not accept the question as valid in the first place... so there is no point in trying to answer them.
I believe this new understanding is going to help me to finally let go of some things, so thank you for that. It doesn't change the fact that I have questions, just that I'm not looking in the right place for answers.... and it is probably best that I move on. This isn't a goodbye post... more like an "I concede that the answers I am looking for will not be found here" post... so will stop asking those questions here.
At some point I passed the "I'm one of you but am just trying to understand" point, and have moved more towards the "He's not one of us or else he would not be asking these questions in the first place" point.
Brad,
Do you have any foundation upon which you base your conclusions? Is it human reasoning or logic? Many people base their beliefs upon logic, reasoning, or science, perhaps. Philosophy, maybe.
No matter what you choose to base your conclusions about all matters on--at some point, you will find there are holes or errors in either your judgment or that of any man-formed foundation. For me, I have never found any holes or errors in God or His Word, so I base myself and my values upon a firm, true foundation.
It isn't that your question isn't valid. It's just that I can't answer it to your satisfaction, if our reasoning is different, and our conclusions are drawn from different sources. Therefore, while the conversation in and of itself may be enjoyable, entertaining or provocative, the end result will still have to be an agreement to disagree.
My post, above, was very blunt, but it wasn't intended to be offensive--just honest. I don't retreat from conversations to that which is "safe." It's not that I'm frightened of examining my foundation. It's that I've already examined it and determined that it's strong and sure, and I don't wish to step off of that which is sound, into error. I'm willing to acknowledge the influences of culture and society on certain issues, such as our language, or modesty. But ultimately, if there is a gray area, I will turn to God's Word to give me the absolute. Once I find the absolute, I draw a final, non-negotiable conclusion.
The conversations are fruitless at some point because my side of it will end with scripture. And every rebuttal will point me back to scripture to find the answer. It's not the the conversation isn't "worth it", it's just that I do come to this forum for edification (mostly), and sometimes for entertainment, and pursuing questions from a non christian worldview is neither uplifting for me, or even entertaining. (Most of the time.) Kind of like the thread Joelel has up right now...his questions have already been answered by numerous apologists over the years, and are not hard to find--but honestly, it only interests me for a little bit to go look up the answers and provide them, and then I just get tired of it. They are so easily found, and there are no real contradictions there.
I don't believe that I said anywhere that you or Michlow shouldn't post here, nor do I think that. I enjoy reading both of your posts. It's just that I've already decided the course of my life. I'm not IN questioning mode. I've been there and moved beyond it. And there are certain things I do not allow myself to question, such as the existence of God or the validity of his spoken Word. Not because I am fearful of finding that He doesn't exist, or that His Word isn't true, because I have possessed those beliefs for as long as I can remember, and have never found proofs against them. No, it's more because I think He has cautioned us, with good reason, against even pursuing those lines of thought in the "academic" sense.
I hate to spring this on you again, but I memorized these verses when I was very small:
"Thy Word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against you." (His Word keeps me from making bad choices, both intellectual and lifestyle.)
"Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." (If I can't see the way, His Word will open my eyes.)
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (I do not want to pursue that thought, because I do not want God to call me a foolish person.)
"Beware lest any man spoil you, through philosophy and vain deceit; after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Let God be true, and every man a liar.)
And I fear for those who are on any path to "self-discovery." We should be about discovering God--not ourselves.
"A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself."
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
I can't imagine, nor do I even wish to pursue, a life without God's Word to guide me. I don't believe that questioning God's existence makes you (or anyone else) of superior intelligence or bravado. In fact, I believe it is careless, and self-destructive.
God will not be undone by any questioning of His existence. However, the person who questions must be careful that they are not undone by their own musings.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
I think that conversation falls into the "not worth it" category... but which Bible? which canon, which translation of which language, etc.?
Is there a specific ISBN number for the specific bible that is the infallible, inspired word of God?
My point is that if you believe the Bible to be true, you can discuss issues on the same level. If you do not believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God, then there is a chasm that can hardly be bridged.
__________________ "Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
My point is that if you believe the Bible to be true, you can discuss issues on the same level. If you do not believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God, then there is a chasm that can hardly be bridged.
Huh? Can hardly be bridged? Have you always been on the same side of the chasm that you're on now? So, what's wrong with conversing across the chasm? One or the other may actually convince the other to cross it. Isn't that what a burden for the lost should inspire you to do? Isn't that what 1 Peter 3:15 is all about?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Huh? Can hardly be bridged? Have you always been on the same side of the chasm that you're on now? So, what's wrong with conversing across the chasm? One or the other may actually convince the other to cross it. Isn't that what a burden for the lost should inspire you to do? Isn't that what 1 Peter 3:15 is all about?
Sorry, strawman argument.
When one person wants to discuss the tenets of the faith, and God's plan for humanity based on scripture, and another says, "I don't even believe God inspired the Bible", then all you have is a philosophical or literary discussion, much as you'd discuss Socrates, or Keats.
And most people on an Apostolic forum are not interested in that type of discussion. If you want to discuss a book for the sake of discussing a book, join Oprah's book club.
In order to have Biblical discussions that pertain to faith, salvation, and holiness in general, it's imperative for both parties to believe that the Bible is the "book".
__________________ "Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
When one person wants to discuss the tenets of the faith, and God's plan for humanity based on scripture, and another says, "I don't even believe God inspired the Bible", then all you have is a philosophical or literary discussion, much as you'd discuss Socrates, or Keats.
And most people on an Apostolic forum are not interested in that type of discussion. If you want to discuss a book for the sake of discussing a book, join Oprah's book club.
In order to have Biblical discussions that pertain to faith, salvation, and holiness in general, it's imperative for both parties to believe that the Bible is the "book".
This just doesn't sound right to me. People with the truth should be willing to dialogue and be questioned, don't you think?
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
When one person wants to discuss the tenets of the faith, and God's plan for humanity based on scripture, and another says, "I don't even believe God inspired the Bible", then all you have is a philosophical or literary discussion, much as you'd discuss Socrates, or Keats.
And most people on an Apostolic forum are not interested in that type of discussion. If you want to discuss a book for the sake of discussing a book, join Oprah's book club.
In order to have Biblical discussions that pertain to faith, salvation, and holiness in general, it's imperative for both parties to believe that the Bible is the "book".
Oh, I don't know, I think a lot of my conversations here have been very interesting, for all parties. Maybe even profitable. Sure, it's not some folks' cup of tea to explore other points of view, but I enjoy it. Some OPs seem to enjoy it. But yes, others do seem to be annoyed and/or frightened by it. To each his own.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
This just doesn't sound right to me. People with the truth should be willing to dialogue and be questioned, don't you think?
How many times can you say, "Well, the Bible says", and someone returns with "I don't even believe the Bible"?
What's the point in the discussion?
Now, there are many other subjects that CAN be discussed, and as I mentioned yesterday, it's great to fellowship our commonalities and if we can avoid the "hot buttons" the discussion is very lively and beneficial.
All I'm referring to is the topic of scriptural discussions.
It's hard to discuss scripture if one party doesn't believe in it at all.
I mean, if a scripture clearly says one thing, and someone comes back with, "Yes, it says that, but I don't believe it", or "Well, I don't believe the Bible is God's word", what else can you discuss???????
__________________ "Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
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