Is the use of "curse" words ever acceptable?

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Oh, I don't know, I think a lot of my conversations here have been very interesting, for all parties. Maybe even profitable. Sure, it's not some folks' cup of tea to explore other points of view, but I enjoy it. Some OPs seem to enjoy it. But yes, others do seem to be annoyed and/or frightened by it. To each his own.

You're absolutely correct, Timmy, and I should have clarified that - thanks for bringing that out.

You contribute to conversations without rancor or without pushing your viewpoint on others, or allowing theirs to be pushed on to you.

There are many other things we discuss on the forum, I mean, look at how many political threads there are!

All I'm saying is that most of the folks on here, even in their diversity, still agree on some basic Christian commonalities, the Bible being the inspired Word of God one of those commonalities. So, at least when scripture is being discussed, the two parties are on the same playing field.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

How many times can you say, "Well, the Bible says", and someone returns with "I don't even believe the Bible"?

What's the point in the discussion?

Now, there are many other subjects that CAN be discussed, and as I mentioned yesterday, it's great to fellowship our commonalities and if we can avoid the "hot buttons" the discussion is very lively and beneficial.

All I'm referring to is the topic of scriptural discussions.

It's hard to discuss scripture if one party doesn't believe in it at all.

I mean, if a scripture clearly says one thing, and someone comes back with, "Yes, it says that, but I don't believe it", or "Well, I don't believe the Bible is God's word", what else can you discuss???????

I think there is a point where you are correct but there is also a point where things can and should be discussed, but this type of discussion would likely be much more challenging.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by ILG

I think there is a point where you are correct but there is also a point where things can and should be discussed, but this type of discussion would likely be much more challenging.

Well, not to beat the dead horse, but here's how the discussion might go:

Bob: "In Genesis 1 God created the heaven and earth and every living thing in six days, and rested on the 7th day. Were those actual 24 hour days, or were they years, or thousand year periods, since the Bible says that a day is as a thousand years to God?"

Joe: "I don't even believe the Bible, so it really doesn't matter".

End of discussion.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by ILG

This just doesn't sound right to me. People with the truth should be willing to dialogue and be questioned, don't you think?

ILG, it's not a matter of being "willing to dialogue and be questioned." In real life" I try to answer any question I'm asked, unless it's patently disrespectful or impertinent. And even then, I've been known to come back with an answer (without returning the same tone).

However, this forum is not an evangelistic field, IMO, and I don't come here to persuade others to be Christians, or to convince them that I'm doing the right thing by being a Christian. There are numerous forums that are there for the sake of arguing those points--just for the sake of the argument. I come here for several reasons, and evangelism isn't one of them. There's a real, hurting, needy world out there, and not much of it, really, is here. This forum is comprised (mostly) of believers, and people who used to be believers and want to maintain a connection. Not many rank sinners on here, that I'm aware of.

Therefore, I feel perfectly at ease to choose my conversations based on personal interest, and I feel no obligation to persuade others to believe. Those who need persuasion can receive that from any number of other posters. That's not something that I find the need to do. There have been many times in the past when Michlow's posts have been in complete contradiction to my own values, and even with God (IMO), and I haven't really felt the need to go down the list, point by point, and show everything I feel is out of line with scripture. I may dialogue a little, but once I'm done with the conversation for whatever reason, I don't have any personal obligation to remain in the fray. It's not that Michlow isn't "worth it", personally. It's just that some things people have to arrive at on their own, perhaps by divine revelation, even, and unless God speaks to me something profound that I must share--this is just me expressing myself for my own enjoyment, and dialoguing for my own enjoyment. If something bores me, or is tiresome, or isn't interesting, or irritates me, I'll probably drop it and move on. I have better things to do with my time, than to participate in conversations that I find sad, depressing, irritating, tiresome, tedious or boring.

That is not to say that I think Michlow (or Brad) is sad, depressing, irritating (okay, sometimes ), tedious, tiresome, and she's certainly never boring. But I do believe I have the option to only participate in the conversations that interest me, for whatever reason, as does any other person on this forum. I reserve the right to say, for any reason, "I really don't care to participate in this conversation."

Further, if I have reached a conclusion based on scripture, then I see no need at all to continue to discuss a matter just for the sake of it, unless I find it entertaining for some reason.

This forum is only a very small piece of my world. And it will only remain a piece of my world as long as I find it to be a pleasant piece. I'm a member here for purely selfish reasons. And I'm not a masochist. I don't deliberately subject myself to unpleasantness, when I could be outside working in the garden, showing Sarah how to use an abacus, reading to Jeffrey, playing the piano, reading my favorite books, organizing my house, or any number of other things that I have to enjoy.

If that doesn't make sense, then I don't know how to make it any clearer.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Well, not to beat the dead horse, but here's how the discussion might go:

Bob: "In Genesis 1 God created the heaven and earth and every living thing in six days, and rested on the 7th day. Were those actual 24 hour days, or were they years, or thousand year periods, since the Bible says that a day is as a thousand years to God?"

Joe: "I don't even believe the Bible, so it really doesn't matter".

End of discussion.

LOL, that about says it all!

[Brad Murphy]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Brad,

Do you have any foundation upon which you base your conclusions? Is it human reasoning or logic? Many people base their beliefs upon logic, reasoning, or science, perhaps. Philosophy, maybe.

No matter what you choose to base your conclusions about all matters on--at some point, you will find there are holes or errors in either your judgment or that of any man-formed foundation. For me, I have never found any holes or errors in God or His Word, so I base myself and my values upon a firm, true foundation.

It isn't that your question isn't valid. It's just that I can't answer it to your satisfaction, if our reasoning is different, and our conclusions are drawn from different sources. Therefore, while the conversation in and of itself may be enjoyable, entertaining or provocative, the end result will still have to be an agreement to disagree.

My post, above, was very blunt, but it wasn't intended to be offensive--just honest. I don't retreat from conversations to that which is "safe." It's not that I'm frightened of examining my foundation. It's that I've already examined it and determined that it's strong and sure, and I don't wish to step off of that which is sound, into error. I'm willing to acknowledge the influences of culture and society on certain issues, such as our language, or modesty. But ultimately, if there is a gray area, I will turn to God's Word to give me the absolute. Once I find the absolute, I draw a final, non-negotiable conclusion.

The conversations are fruitless at some point because my side of it will end with scripture. And every rebuttal will point me back to scripture to find the answer. It's not the the conversation isn't "worth it", it's just that I do come to this forum for edification (mostly), and sometimes for entertainment, and pursuing questions from a non christian worldview is neither uplifting for me, or even entertaining. (Most of the time.) Kind of like the thread Joelel has up right now...his questions have already been answered by numerous apologists over the years, and are not hard to find--but honestly, it only interests me for a little bit to go look up the answers and provide them, and then I just get tired of it. They are so easily found, and there are no real contradictions there.

I don't believe that I said anywhere that you or Michlow shouldn't post here, nor do I think that. I enjoy reading both of your posts. It's just that I've already decided the course of my life. I'm not IN questioning mode. I've been there and moved beyond it. And there are certain things I do not allow myself to question, such as the existence of God or the validity of his spoken Word. Not because I am fearful of finding that He doesn't exist, or that His Word isn't true, because I have possessed those beliefs for as long as I can remember, and have never found proofs against them. No, it's more because I think He has cautioned us, with good reason, against even pursuing those lines of thought in the "academic" sense.

I hate to spring this on you again, but I memorized these verses when I was very small:

"Thy Word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against you." (His Word keeps me from making bad choices, both intellectual and lifestyle.)

"Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." (If I can't see the way, His Word will open my eyes.)

"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (I do not want to pursue that thought, because I do not want God to call me a foolish person.)

"Beware lest any man spoil you, through philosophy and vain deceit; after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Let God be true, and every man a liar.)

And I fear for those who are on any path to "self-discovery." We should be about discovering God--not ourselves.

"A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself."

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"


I can't imagine, nor do I even wish to pursue, a life without God's Word to guide me. I don't believe that questioning God's existence makes you (or anyone else) of superior intelligence or bravado. In fact, I believe it is careless, and self-destructive.

God will not be undone by any questioning of His existence. However, the person who questions must be careful that they are not undone by their own musings.

We do all seem to be in agreement here... (other than the careless and destructive part) I sincerely feel that your comments helped me see things more clearly about the futility of discussing certain things... I did not think it was too blunt, in fact, it kinda gave me an epiphany or a paradigm shift in how I approach things. I agree completely that if the final answer is "the bible says so" that this is not going to be a satisfactory answer to those who are looking for more than that. In my "37 years" of experience, I find that anyone can use any scripture to justify any argument, and sometimes the same scripture to prove both sides of the same argument... and to me this lessens the weight of scripture when they can (and are) used to support any position imaginable. It is kinda like when paper money becomes worthless because someone printed too much of it...

I do try to live my life based on reason and logic and by no means believe that I am incapable of making errors or mistakes... and when I do make mistakes, I try to learn from them. I will say that in general my "bravado" in making decisions in my own life have proven to be as good as any preacher could make for me if I was under "subjection" to one.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Brad Murphy

We do all seem to be in agreement here... (other than the careless and destructive part) I sincerely feel that your comments helped me see things more clearly about the futility of discussing certain things... I did not think it was too blunt, in fact, it kinda gave me an epiphany or a paradigm shift in how I approach things. I agree completely that if the final answer is "the bible says so" that this is not going to be a satisfactory answer to those who are looking for more than that. In my "37 years" of experience, I find that anyone can use any scripture to justify any argument, and sometimes the same scripture to prove both sides of the same argument... and to me this lessens the weight of scripture when they can (and are) used to support any position imaginable. It is kinda like when paper money becomes worthless because someone printed too much of it...

I do try to live my life based on reason and logic and by no means believe that I am incapable of making errors or mistakes... and when I do make mistakes, I try to learn from them. I will say that in general my "bravado" in making decisions in my own life have proven to be as good as any preacher could make for me if I was under "subjection" to one.

What you see as lessening the weight of scripture, I see as illustrating the beauty of it. (And I know you're referring to opposing positions being propped up by the same scriptures.) But in truth, I can take one, clear, biblical principle, and apply it to a hundred different areas of my life, to help me make a good decision.

Regardless, good post. I think I understand you, and I feel that you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Brad Murphy]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Brad,

Do you have any foundation upon which you base your conclusions? Is it human reasoning or logic? Many people base their beliefs upon logic, reasoning, or science, perhaps. Philosophy, maybe.

No matter what you choose to base your conclusions about all matters on--at some point, you will find there are holes or errors in either your judgment or that of any man-formed foundation. For me, I have never found any holes or errors in God or His Word, so I base myself and my values upon a firm, true foundation.

I wanted to follow up on this part specifically. As I stated in the previous post, I base my beliefs on logic and reason, with science and philosophy BOTH playing a part... I guess my Myspace page would be the ultimate authority (TIC), where I state:

"As I get older and have time to reflect, I am finding that I am not religious, I am not spiritual, but lean more towards the philosophical. I don't believe anyone has the answers so will not take seriously those who feel that they have them... I find myself much more fascinated with my Irish/Celtic heritage than my religious one, but even that is only a passing interest. I would consider being religious if there were a religion for pegboard affectionados. Maybe I should start one? "

I'll just add to that, that I have a hard time seeing God through all of the religion and dogma (including but not limited to the Apostolic culture)... He is a distant blur, but if you don't follow religion and dogma then you aren't considered religious, so it's kind of a no-win situation.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Well, not to beat the dead horse, but here's how the discussion might go:

Bob: "In Genesis 1 God created the heaven and earth and every living thing in six days, and rested on the 7th day. Were those actual 24 hour days, or were they years, or thousand year periods, since the Bible says that a day is as a thousand years to God?"

Joe: "I don't even believe the Bible, so it really doesn't matter".

End of discussion.

That's how it goes!

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by ILG

This just doesn't sound right to me. People with the truth should be willing to dialogue and be questioned, don't you think?

In order for dialogue to take place, there has to be a platform for that dialogue to stand on-- there has to be some absolutes, some "givens" or the dialogue will be wasted with two or people talking to each other, but not with each other.

Not all talking is dialogue, not all communication is fruitful. There are some conversations not worth having.