UPC and anyone we "know" aside... Statistically, is there greater incidence of sexual moral failure among preachers of some races?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Sorry folks, did not mean to throw a bomb and leave...
Some time ago I did read an article on sexual immorality among black clergy. Perhaps someone can help me ID the piece.
The article was introspective and I believe the study was led by scholars and clergy within the black community. It made the case that immorality was at very high levels and shutting the offenders out of the ministry as many traditional churches have done would leave a giant hole in the "black church" leadership. Consequently many have come to accept this as a part of black culture and restitution to the ministry is nearly always a given - often without any lapse of the office.
So rather than just "throw a bomb and leave", you decided to throw the bomb and explain why you did it? Maybe it would have been better not to throw the bomb at all... at least if you dont have any supporting facts to back you up. The implication of your posts is that blacks are perhaps kept out of leadership because of sexual immorality issues, but you come back with no documentation or references to back you up on such a suggestion.
Even if you were indeed to find an article referring to sexual immorality among a particular group of black clergy, we know there have been many articles also written about sexual imorality among clergy who happen to be white. Many mostly-white denominations and minsterial fellowships have had immorality issues, yet I've never heard anyone trying to imply it might be a "white ministers' problem"! And we can go into a long list of names starting with Swaggart, Bakker, Earl Paulk, Ted Haggard, et al, "men of God" who are not at all black, but who have sullied the name of Christ with their immorality. Sexual immorality among ministers is not a black thing, nor is is a white thing.
I'm not trying to beat up on you here, Hoove, but I'm just flabbergasted by your comments. And in the context of this discussion (namely, why more people of color are not promoted to leadership in the UPCI), for you to suggest that black ministers may have more of a tendency than whites toword sexual immorality just seems to me to be a highly irresponsible and unnecessarily inflammatory thing to say.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
So rather than just "throw a bomb and leave", you decided to throw the bomb and explain why you did it? Maybe it would have been better not to throw the bomb at all... at least if you dont have any supporting facts to back you up. The implication of your posts is that blacks are perhaps kept out of leadership because of sexual immorality issues, but you come back with no documentation or references to back you up on such a suggestion.
Even if you were indeed to find an article referring to sexual immorality among a particular group of black clergy, we know there have been many articles also written about sexual imorality among clergy who happen to be white. Many mostly-white denominations and minsterial fellowships have had immorality issues, yet I've never heard anyone trying to imply it might be a "white ministers' problem"! And we can go into a long list of names starting with Swaggart, Bakker, Earl Paulk, Ted Haggard, et al, "men of God" who are not at all black, but who have sullied the name of Christ with their immorality. Sexual immorality among ministers is not a black thing, nor is is a white thing.
I'm not trying to beat up on you here, Hoove, but I'm just flabbergasted by your comments. And in the context of this discussion (namely, why more people of color are not promoted to leadership in the UPCI), for you to suggest that black ministers may have more of a tendency than whites toword sexual immorality just seems to me to be a highly irresponsible and unnecessarily inflammatory thing to say.
I very seriously doubt black or latino clergy have any more moral problems than whites. I think that is a mischaracteration passed off as fact.
Sorry folks, did not mean to throw a bomb and leave...
Some time ago I did read an article on sexual immorality among black clergy. Perhaps someone can help me ID the piece.
The article was introspective and I believe the study was led by scholars and clergy within the black community. It made the case that immorality was at very high levels and shutting the offenders out of the ministry as many traditional churches have done would leave a giant hole in the "black church" leadership. Consequently many have come to accept this as a part of black culture and restitution to the ministry is nearly always a given - often without any lapse of the office.
I was curious as to where you were going with this. Honestly, I was hoping that it wasn't here...namely that we don't see more Black people in high levels of leadership because we have a greater proclivity towards immorality. I was curious because this was a new spin and I thought I had heard it all. Is this something that you have heard advanced as a reason in relation to this specific thread or something that you read somewhere and juxtaposed on your own. I guess waht I want to know is whether you have heard this reason stated as part of why we don't see Blacks in certain levels of leadership or if you were just trying to fashion your own explanation. I am very curious to know this.
I will not try to beat you up on this because I do not know your intentions but I will say that statements like these are part of the reason that many intellegent Black Apostolics come and leave our ranks. I am aware of immorality in high levels of organizations (UPC included) where it didn't matter whether the person was white or black...only that they were human and sinful.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
This is an interesting question/topic. I would say that your friends are correct in their assumptions. I don't think there are any specific plans to make the leadership and constituency of the UPC more diverse, besides the existing Spanish, Black Evangelism, and Multicultural Ministries departments.
I believe there are a couple of African-Americans on the General Board of the
UPC:
Rev. Arthur Naylor - New Jersey Metro District Superintendant
Pastor of First Pentecostal Prayer of Faith http://www.1stpentecostal.org/ -
Hamilton Square, NJ
Rev. Arthur Thomas - New York Metro District Superintendant
Pastor of Oneness Rehoboth Apostolic Church http://oracministries.org/ - Mount Vernon, NY
The following are some well known African American Pastors in the UPC:
An African American that might have been on the General Board as General Youth President if he were eligible to run is Wayne Francis. He would have no doubt been elected at the past General Conference . He is still the Promotions Director for the General Youth Division, a position not on the General Board though.
As far as Latinos on the general board, I can't say for certain. If you look at
the names of the district superintendents on this listing http://wec.upci.org/Districts/, there does not appear to be any Latinos.
I am not sure if the national Spanish Ministries director position is a general
board post, or if it is under the Home Missions Division. The national director
is Elias Limones who Pastors The Pentecostals of the Bay Area in Pittsburgh, CA http://www.pentecostales.org
In regards to the excerpt of the article you posted and specifically to this
line "Black professionals are rarely given in White Pentecostal churches the
leadership prominence they would generally receive in Black Pentecostal ones" I would say that this depends on the the church and Pastor. I know in some places, minorities can only go so far.
I would also say that of the African-American Pastors I mentioned above,
African-Americans would comprise 50%-60% or greater of their church memberships.
FTR:
Elias Limones hasn't been the Spanish Ministries director for over 3 years now.
I was curious as to where you were going with this. Honestly, I was hoping that it wasn't here...namely that we don't see more Black people in high levels of leadership because we have a greater proclivity towards immorality. I was curious because this was a new spin and I thought I had heard it all. Is this something that you have heard advanced as a reason in relation to this specific thread or something that you read somewhere and juxtaposed on your own. I guess waht I want to know is whether you have heard this reason stated as part of why we don't see Blacks in certain levels of leadership or if you were just trying to fashion your own explanation. I am very curious to know this.
I will not try to beat you up on this because I do not know your intentions but I will say that statements like these are part of the reason that many intellegent Black Apostolics come and leave our ranks. I am aware of immorality in high levels of organizations (UPC included) where it didn't matter whether the person was white or black...only that they were human and sinful.
Stew, I hope I don't offend you or anyone else but I'm gonna tell it straight. I know of SEVERAL COGIC Bishops who have children by other women in the church. Some are on their general board. some have boys on the side too. There is one case here in Oakland, a General board member paid off the mother ($400,000) of a 15yr old with whom he had a child by to keep her from turning him in. I can tell you NUMEROUS cases. I'm not saying this is a case of race perhaps just denomination?? the bishops are placed on a pedastol of being "untouchable" . It is also prevelant in the Full Gospel Baptist (paul morton's group). for some reason these issues are brushed aside like nothing happend- i don't get it
I don't think this type of thing is as prominant in the Apostolic ranks, PAW, UPC, COOLJC etc.
Stew, I hope I don't offend you or anyone else but I'm gonna tell it straight. I know of SEVERAL COGIC Bishops who have children by other women in the church. Some are on their general board. some have boys on the side too. There is one case here in Oakland, a General board member paid off the mother ($400,000) of a 15yr old with whom he had a child by to keep her from turning him in. I can tell you NUMEROUS cases. I'm not saying this is a case of race perhaps just denomination?? the bishops are placed on a pedastol of being "untouchable" . It is also prevelant in the Full Gospel Baptist (paul morton's group). for some reason these issues are brushed aside like nothing happend- i don't get it
I don't think this type of thing is as prominant in the Apostolic ranks, PAW, UPC, COOLJC etc.
Mark, the whole point of this thread was not whether all black clergymen are above reproach, it was about why we do not see more diversity amongst the leadership specifically in the UPC. I would not attempt to defend or vouch for the fallen Black pastors in other organizations any more than I would the fallen White pastors in other organizations. The stories of Paulk and others are so perverted and convoluted that the average sinner lives above that.
For someone like me who was raised around and able to observe many of the respected Black leaders in our particular org, it is curious to me that a proclivity for immorality would be advanced as a cause for the lack of representation and visibility at some level. Once again, things are better now than they have ever been in my opinion, but I was struck by that statement and looking for more clarity as it relates to this org...the only one I've ever been a part of.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Stew, I hope I don't offend you or anyone else but I'm gonna tell it straight. I know of SEVERAL COGIC Bishops who have children by other women in the church. Some are on their general board. some have boys on the side too. There is one case here in Oakland, a General board member paid off the mother ($400,000) of a 15yr old with whom he had a child by to keep her from turning him in. I can tell you NUMEROUS cases. I'm not saying this is a case of race perhaps just denomination?? the bishops are placed on a pedastol of being "untouchable" . It is also prevelant in the Full Gospel Baptist (paul morton's group). for some reason these issues are brushed aside like nothing happend- i don't get it
St Mark if you dont mind, please tell us what this has to do with the issue at hand here, namely the relative lack of representation of men of color in the upper echelons of the UPCI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew
Mark, the whole point of this thread was not whether all black clergymen are above reproach, it was about why we do not see more diversity amongst the leadership specifically in the UPC. I would not attempt to defend or vouch for the fallen Black pastors in other organizations any more than I would the fallen White pastors in other organizations. The stories of Paulk and others are so perverted and convoluted that the average sinner lives above that.
For someone like me who was raised around and able to observe many of the respected Black leaders in our particular org, it is curious to me that a proclivity for immorality would be advanced as a cause for the lack of representation and visibility at some level.
I agree. I'm still flabergasted that anyone would float that as a possible reason... flabbergasted also that anyone would try to give [anecdotal] support such an outrageous contention, as if it actually contains any merit.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
St Mark if you dont mind, please tell us what this has to do with the issue at hand here, namely the relative lack of representation of men of color in the upper echelons of the UPCI.
I agree. I'm still flabergasted that anyone would float that as a possible reason... flabbergasted also that anyone would try to give [anecdotal] support such an outrageous contention, as if it actually contains any merit.
TR, you being surprised to here this is actually pretty reassuring to me. I was wondering whether this may be something that was whispered about quietly and was actually viewed as a legitimate concern. I had never heard this before and I wonder if by him putting it out there and others possibly agreeing meant that this was something that was actually thought amongst our ranks. If so, it is shameful in my opinion and very disrespectful to the many great Black pastors, leaders, preachers, and missionaries that I know.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
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