Should christians believe in the death penalty? - Page 5

Truthseeker · #41 10-15-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy

Here's a NT scripture for ya:

Acts 5:1-11

Let God be the executioner, as He sees fit.

Doesn't apply.

Truthseeker · #42 10-15-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

What it says, in context, is that we should submit ourselves to the ordinances and the leaderships of man...

Whether it be to the king AS supreme.

Or whether it be to governors AS unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers.

This is not a scriptural acceptance of any form of punishment.

This is a scriptural admonition to submit to the legal authorities that are in power.

If this does pertain to a Christians attitude toward the death penalty at all then the message would be one that... if you are brought before the governor to be punished then accept that punishment.

We do have several examples where brethren did just that. The only example we have where a punishment was not fully accepted and allowed to be carried out was when Peter was in jail and the people prayed...

Even then they submitted and God was the one who freed him.

This scripture is about our attitude and submission to the authorities of this world... possibly... even to the point of being wrongly put to death... at which time... having seen my brother put to death wrongfully by the governor... I would not find myself a big fan of the death penalty.

What was the main punishment of murderers and such when that scripture was written?

Digging4Truth · #43 10-15-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

What was the main punishment of murderers and such when that scripture was written?

That is what I am saying though.

This scripture is not making an attempt to say that any particular form of punishment is good or bad.

It is stating that one should obey their governors etc.

I don't understand why you feel that this scripture was saying that we should support the death penalty.

Timmy · #44 10-15-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Doesn't apply.

Maybe not directly. But if you believe that God never changes, you must believe that He can kill again, if He wants to. And considering that our imperfect justice system 1) sometimes convicts innocents and 2) sometimes doesn't convict the guilty, wouldn't you agree that God would do a better job of it?

Withdrawn · #45 10-15-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

What was the main punishment of murderers and such when that scripture was written?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I don't understand the logic behind this question. What are you trying to infer? Are you inferring that whatever laws or punishments were in order in the first century were endorsed by God or that He approved? They absolutely had death sentences - one carried out on our Savior as reference. But does that mean that God ordained that man should kill criminals? I'm not talking about the Law that Moses delivered to the people. Jesus became sin for us, taking its punishment, and removed the curse of that law. I'm talking about the civil law, which at the time was Roman. Was God fully behind, in favor of Roman civil law?

Truthseeker · #46 10-15-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

That is what I am saying though.

This scripture is not making an attempt to say that any particular form of punishment is good or bad.

It is stating that one should obey their governors etc.

I don't understand why you feel that this scripture was saying that we should support the death penalty.

OOPs I miss understood ya. I agree it doesn't say we should support the DP. It's the government job.

Truthseeker · #47 10-15-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaamez

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I don't understand the logic behind this question. What are you trying to infer? Are you inferring that whatever laws or punishments were in order in the first century were endorsed by God or that He approved? They absolutely had death sentences - one carried out on our Savior as reference. But does that mean that God ordained that man should kill criminals? I'm not talking about the Law that Moses delivered to the people. Jesus became sin for us, taking its punishment, and removed the curse of that law. I'm talking about the civil law, which at the time was Roman. Was God fully behind, in favor of Roman civil law?

Didn't it say they were sent to punish evil doers? and wasn't the DP a main punishment handed out?

Withdrawn · #48 10-15-2008, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Didn't it say they were sent to punish evil doers? and wasn't the DP a main punishment handed out?

I'm not sure I follow. My response already affirmed my agreement that the death penalty certainly WAS handed out and executed. The crucifixion of our Savior is my primary example. But if we take this portion of scripture (1 Peter 2) and apply it to everything that is in our civil law, saying that God endorses it all because He appoints those setup as governors and rulers, then...

What if our government passed a law that said anyone who professes faith in Jesus Christ should be put to death. Would we agree with the death penalty then? Because our "governors" passed this law, does that mean that God endorses it? Or does it just mean that He allows it? Should we obey the law? Or should we be disobedient and receive the just punishment for our crime as prescribed by the law? And is God in favor of government-sponsored killing of all who are loyal to Jesus' Name?

I understand this is an egregious example, and I already know what your response would be - probably the same as mine. I would still profess my faith in Christ and receive the punishment. But does that mean that God is pleased with the law and its penalty?

In most cases, death is only applied as a punishment for specific types of murder. And I understand our human desire for retribution and our own sense of justice. But I find a new paradigm when Jesus said, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." I know He isn't saying that we should just allow people to keep killing people or keep committing crimes against society. But He is saying that the "tit for tat" mindset is no longer how we should operate. There's a higher calling for us, one that shows mercy, one that would lead them to Christ and a life more abundant. If we kill them, we take away that opportunity (or at least put a time limit on it). It's the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. I would guess that MOST of these people on death row across America have had VERY LITTLE experience or ever come in contact with the goodness of God as expressed by His Body, the Church.

Mercy · #49 10-15-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaamez

...But He is saying that the "tit for tat" mindset is no longer how we should operate. There's a higher calling for us, one that shows mercy, one that would lead them to Christ and a life more abundant. If we kill them, we take away that opportunity (or at least put a time limit on it). It's the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. I would guess that MOST of these people on death row across America have had VERY LITTLE experience or ever come in contact with the goodness of God as expressed by His Body, the Church.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

ronharvey · #50 10-15-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Could you share any NT references that instruct us to do so?

We have OT references to stone adulterers but we don't stone adulterers.

There are many instructions to exact punishments in the OT that were not repeated in the NT and that we no longer fulfill.

Drink no more water but drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake.

Do you obey this? Granted it is OUT of context but hey, it is a NT command right?

The OT taught us not to drink wine but here a NT command now supersedes that command: right? You know what I'm saying.

The NT was not to re-write the LAW or any command God gave.
The Coming of Christ was not to destroy the LAW or the Prophets.

In Acts when a dispute arose about whether the LAW of circumcision should be obeyed by the gentiles the consensus was not to DO AWAY with THE LAW or to hit them all at once with it but to ease them into it because Moses in every city was read in the synagogues every sabbath day (Acts 15)

So, they gave them some OT LAW things to do 'for right now'.

The point is, the Christians lived and obeyed God's LAW, unless needed, there was no need to restate the entire LAW for it to be in force.

The letters written by the Apostles constantly used the OT LAW to guide conduct and morals.

Sin is the transgression of the LAW (I John 3:4)
Love is the fulfilling of the LAW (Romans 13)

I see no conflict here.

It is not necessary to FIND a command telling us to obey the civil LAW of God when there is no command telling us NOT to obey. Empirical evidence tells us they obeyed God's LAW and taught others to as well.

Granted, some things were changed (transfered) i.e.
1. Circumcision = Baptism ( Colossians 2:11, 12)
2. Passover Lamb = Christ
3. High Priesthood = Christ
4. Priesthood = Us etc...
5. The 10 commandments are now written on tables of flesh in our heart where once they were just on tables of stone.

Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law"

This word changed means transfered, like money changes hands.

Ron