If Physical Death is Final? - Page 6

Antipas · #51 11-12-2008, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I see you you responded to my post, but ignored the main thrust of my post, which is... if you were to agree with Antipas' statement that if something "terrible" is done, it cant be God,because God doesn't do "terrible" things... who defines what's terrible? you and I , or God?

And... is God limited to man's mental boundaries and perception of what is just, or does he set the boundaries himself, according to the counsel of his own will and his own wisdom?

It's not all that simple. I'm a father...I've had to correct my son, and for him it was terrible. However, temporary remedial punishment is in now way comparable to endless torture and torments. God may do terrible things to correct mankind. However, that doesn't compare to the idea of God inflicting eternal torture on souls. We're all guilty of sin. None of us are more worthy of punishment than any one else. The vast majority who will be punished by God in Hell were simply born in the wrong place at the wrong time and never heard the Gospel. How can sentencing them to eternal torture serve any purpose? How does it remedy the situation? It is written...

Revelation 21: 4-5.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

God said that there is coming a time when there shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain. That's a promise from the Lord. If there is an eternal Hell...there is eternal death, sorrow, crying, and pain for most. Only a sliver of mankind experience the blessedness of Heaven...the Savior of the world who died for the whole world failed and the promise of no more pain in the new creation fails.

How do we who propose eternal torments answer these issues?

crakjak · #52 11-12-2008, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I see you you responded to my post, but ignored the main thrust of my post, which is... if you were to agree with Antipas' statement that if something "terrible" is done, it cant be God,because God doesn't do "terrible" things... who defines what's terrible? you and I , or God?

And... is God limited to man's mental boundaries and perception of what is just, or does he set the boundaries himself, according to the counsel of his own will and his own wisdom?

I believe I gave some explanation of why I disagree with the purpose of your post.

Yes, the physical destruction of human life is a terrible thing on a very basic physical level, yet because God has a much greater purpose of man's redemption physical death is not so terrible.

We live in a fallen world of sin and death, but God has a plan to remove all curse and evil. He is going to remove all sin and curse, and in the process the cosmos, man and all creation will be made new.

crakjak · #53 11-12-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipas

It's not all that simple. I'm a father...I've had to correct my son, and for him it was terrible. However, temporary remedial punishment is in now way comparable to endless torture and torments. God may do terrible things to correct mankind. However, that doesn't compare to the idea of God inflicting eternal torture on souls. We're all guilty of sin. None of us are more worthy of punishment than any one else. The vast majority who will be punished by God in Hell were simply born in the wrong place at the wrong time and never heard the Gospel. How can sentencing them to eternal torture serve any purpose? How does it remedy the situation? It is written...

Revelation 21: 4-5.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

God said that there is coming a time when there shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain. That's a promise from the Lord. If there is an eternal Hell...there is eternal death, sorrow, crying, and pain for most. Only a sliver of mankind experience the blessedness of Heaven...the Savior of the world who died for the whole world failed and the promise of no more pain in the new creation fails.

How do we who propose eternal torments answer these issues?

If the Body of Christ ever gets a vision of what God is about, the Good News will "cover the earth as the waters covers the seas." This Good News is irresistible, Jesus Christ came from God and became the Savior of the whole world.

The gospel of traditional religion is the Worst Possible News for the vast majority of mankind.

crakjak · #54 11-12-2008, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I see you you responded to my post, but ignored the main thrust of my post, which is... if you were to agree with Antipas' statement that if something "terrible" is done, it cant be God,because God doesn't do "terrible" things... who defines what's terrible? you and I , or God?

And... is God limited to man's mental boundaries and perception of what is just, or does he set the boundaries himself, according to the counsel of his own will and his own wisdom?

As my signature quotes, God may cause grief, but it will not last forever.

TRFrance · #55 11-12-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipas

How can sentencing them to eternal torture serve any purpose? How does it remedy the situation? It is written...

Revelation 21: 4-5.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

God said that there is coming a time when there shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain. That's a promise from the Lord. If there is an eternal Hell...there is eternal death, sorrow, crying, and pain for most. Only a sliver of mankind experience the blessedness of Heaven...the Savior of the world who died for the whole world failed and the promise of no more pain in the new creation fails.

How do we who propose eternal torments answer these issues?

In the very verse you propose, you seem to be overlooking the first part of it. Yes the verse does say "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying," but that's part of a verse where it says "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes". THEIR eyes. Whose eyes is it talking about? In the context there it clearly is referring to "his bride" (verse 2), which we know to be the church. That passage is not taking about everyone it is talking about his bride and further says "they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

In fact, the passage clearly shifts in a different direction in verse 8 where it says "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Just looking at it plainly in context, it's actually not that hard to see the clear distinction between the end of the righteous, and the end of the wicked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipas

God said that there is coming a time when there shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain.That's a promise from the Lord.

No death, sorrow,crying, pain for who? For everyone? or for the bride? (Verse 1-7 is referring to the bride only.)

And it's not a promise for those who die in their sins. It's a promise pertaining to the the righteous.
Why would you choose to not look at the verse in context of the whole chapter from the beginning?

bkstokes · #56 11-12-2008, 10:15 AM

Crakjak

It seems that your beliefs are not that far from the Roman Catholic idea of purgatory.

mfblume · #57 11-12-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipas

***Just a few thoughts from one pondering the subject of UR.***

Thanks for your note, but it just seemed you were UR by the sense of your words. However, I do not agree we can fellowship UR folks. It's too major a doctrinal difference.

TRFrance · #58 11-12-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Thanks for your note, but it just seemed you were UR by the sense of your words. However, I do not agree we can fellowship UR folks. It's too major a doctrinal difference.

I was thinking the same thing. For someone who says he is not UR, Antipas sure seems to be arguing their points pretty insistently.

Bottom line is, I don't think that for an apostolic to embrace UR is simply harmless, as Antipas seems to think. Our beliefs influence our behavior. If we don't believe there's an eternal hell, it will on some level [consciously or subconsciously] affect our level of urgency when it comes to reaching the lost.

Antipas · #59 11-12-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance

In the very verse you propose, you seem to be overlooking the first part of it. Yes the verse does say "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying," but that's part of a verse where it says "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes". THEIR eyes. Whose eyes is it talking about? In the context there it clearly is referring to "his bride" (verse 2), which we know to be the church. That passage is not taking about everyone it is talking about his bride and further says "they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

In fact, the passage clearly shifts in a different direction in verse 8 where it says "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Just looking at it plainly in context, it's actually not that hard to see the clear distinction between the end of the righteous, and the end of the wicked.

No death, sorrow,crying, pain for who? For everyone? or for the bride? (Verse 1-7 is referring to the bride only.)

And it's not a promise for those who die in their sins. It's a promise pertaining to the the righteous.
Why would you choose to not look at the verse in context of the whole chapter from the beginning?

Those who do not make the New Heaven and the New Earth have their "part" in the lake of fire. What is one's "part"? You propose it's eternal, the UR people propose it's their "portion", a period of punishment. Ultimately every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess to the glory of God. You see God torturing people into doing it....the UR believer believes that God's grace will win out over all nations, kindreds, peoples, and tongues.

The mere fact that God has proven incapable of saving the vast majorty of his creation is difficult to accept. We say God never fails...but that's all relative. One could argue that if God only saved one person he didn't fail to save. However, if God only saved one person in relation to all humanity, the gospel was an abysmal failure.

Antipas · #60 11-12-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance

In the very verse you propose, you seem to be overlooking the first part of it. Yes the verse does say "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying," but that's part of a verse where it says "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes". THEIR eyes. Whose eyes is it talking about? In the context there it clearly is referring to "his bride" (verse 2), which we know to be the church. That passage is not taking about everyone it is talking about his bride and further says "they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

In fact, the passage clearly shifts in a different direction in verse 8 where it says "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Just looking at it plainly in context, it's actually not that hard to see the clear distinction between the end of the righteous, and the end of the wicked.

No death, sorrow,crying, pain for who? For everyone? or for the bride? (Verse 1-7 is referring to the bride only.)

And it's not a promise for those who die in their sins. It's a promise pertaining to the the righteous.
Why would you choose to not look at the verse in context of the whole chapter from the beginning?

Let me guess... you believe that you're not going to die in your sins correct? You'll die sinless and perfect?