If Physical Death is Final?

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Antipas

The "second death" could be interpreted as the death of the soul's will and rebellion during their punishment after physical death. We die at the altar, they will die during their correction. At least, that's one idea I had read about.

It says the death of the soul,not the death of will and rebellion and sin or what ever else of the soul.


Math.10 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy(cease to exist) both soul and body in hell.


James005:020Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death,(cease to exist) and shall hide a multitude of sins

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by clgustaveson

This thread will be the death of me.

It might be the life of you,truth saves.

[mfblume]

Some argue that ETERNAL means for a limited time, or an age. However, what about the eternal life we get? Must be consistent.

This doctrine, I think, is that vile that I would not even play devil's advocate with it, Antipas. lol

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Some argue that ETERNAL means for a limited time, or an age. However, what about the eternal life we get? Must be consistent.

This doctrine, I think, is that vile that I would not even play devil's advocate with it, Antipas. lol

Well,if you don't die the second death then you go on living.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Joelel

It says the death of the soul,not the death of will and rebellion and sin or what ever else of the soul.


Math.10 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy(cease to exist) both soul and body in hell.


James005:020Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death,(cease to exist) and shall hide a multitude of sins

How do you define "soul"? Soul is translated as a living being, not necessarily always our immaterial nature. It's also an indication of the psyche as opposed to one's ghost. So basically the death of the soul may be an indicator of the loss of one's life.

More importantly, how does one define "destroy"? "Destroy" is the word, "apollumi" and it's possible meanings are...



622 // apoollumi // apollumi // ap-ol'-loo-mee //

from 575 and the base of 3639 ; TDNT - 1:394,67; v

AV - perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92

1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

The word "destroy" doesn't mean to absolutely obliterate in all contexts. In light of other Scriptures regarding the afterlife, we have to understand that the "death" or "destruction" of the soul is meant in the sense of one's life being a total loss as a result of one's sentencing.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Some argue that ETERNAL means for a limited time, or an age. However, what about the eternal life we get? Must be consistent.

I think you're missing the point. The term "eternal punishment" has to be considered in it's entirety. The effects of this punishment, be it never ending torture or ages long correction, are eternal. Therefore it is a punishment of an eternal nature....just as life in God is of an eternal nature.

For example, my father once whipped me with a belt for running out into the street. I never ran out into the street again. My father didn't beat me forever....but the effects of that disciple will forever be with me. Now multiply this kind of correction beyond imagination. God knows how to deliver punishment of an eternal nature that will render eternal correction.

...

This doctrine, I think, is that vile that I would not even play devil's advocate with it, Antipas. lol

That's what Futurists say about Preterists. I think it's an unfair accusation. And for the record...I've defended Preterists from the onslaught of hateful Futurist brethren by being a devil's advocate.

We all have the same Holy Ghost, and here we've all been baptized in the wonderful name of Jesus. Many of us are Preterist, many are Futurist, many believe in destruction of the soul, others believe in eternal torment, yet others believe in universal reconciliation. Sadly...few are spiritually mature enough to keep the bonds of fellowship in brotherly love.

We are brothers. Some are right...and yes...some are mistaken. But we can be brothers and intellectually disagree with respect, yet not discount the salvation or validity of the other's interpretation. I married into a Jewish family...I know rabbis from different schools that take a VERY different position on Torah. Yet they don't discount the other's Judaism or Jewishness. They are a family. We Christians need to mature spiritually and allow for different schools of thought among our number, especially on subjects like this.

The non-negotiable should be the Oneness of God and the fullness of the Acts 2:38 experience.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Not necessarily. Let’s look at Jude….

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal (eonian) fire.

But watch this…look what prophesy states about Sodom….

Mt 11:23,24
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if themighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

So we see mercy shown to Sodom. But it gets even more interesting…

Eze 16:53,55
I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in the midst of them, As for your sisters, Sodom and her daughters shall return to their former estate

So we see that ultimately Sodom, an example of eternal fire, is restored along with Israel in eternity.

So we have to ask ourselves, is “eternal fire” eternal because of it’s duration or because of the duration of it’s corrective or purifying effect?

As you can see it's not as cut and dry as one might assume. We often assume it is because we've had only one interpretation drilled into our heads most of our lives. However, there are other viable interpretations. That's why if God gives the Holy Ghost to a UR believing Apostolic, I still count him or her as my brother and welcome their fellowship.

Amen, Antipas you are doing an admirable job!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I think you're missing the point. The term "eternal punishment" has to be considered in it's entirety. The effects of this punishment, be it never ending torture or ages long correction, are eternal. Therefore it is a punishment of an eternal nature....just as life in God is of an eternal nature.

For example, my father once whipped me with a belt for running out into the street. I never ran out into the street again. My father didn't beat me forever....but the effects of that disciple will forever be with me. Now multiply this kind of correction beyond imagination. God knows how to deliver punishment of an eternal nature that will render eternal correction.

...



That's what Futurists say about Preterists. I think it's an unfair accusation. And for the record...I've defended Preterists from the onslaught of hateful Futurist brethren by being a devil's advocate.

We all have the same Holy Ghost, and here we've all been baptized in the wonderful name of Jesus. Many of us are Preterist, many are Futurist, many believe in destruction of the soul, others believe in eternal torment, yet others believe in universal reconciliation. Sadly...few are spiritually mature enough to keep the bonds of fellowship in brotherly love.

We are brothers. Some are right...and yes...some are mistaken. But we can be brothers and intellectually disagree with respect, yet not discount the salvation or validity of the other's interpretation. I married into a Jewish family...I know rabbis from different schools that take a VERY different position on Torah. Yet they don't discount the other's Judaism or Jewishness. They are a family. We Christians need to mature spiritually and allow for different schools of thought among our number, especially on subjects like this.

The non-negotiable should be the Oneness of God and the fullness of the Acts 2:38 experience.

Now let the saved say amen! AMEN! I embrace you all as brothers and sisters in Christ, and any of you have every right to be wrong. lol Especially Mike Blume.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Crakjak

It seems that your beliefs are not that far from the Roman Catholic idea of purgatory.

BK, the belief of "endless torture" is a bedrock doctrine of the RCC, and preceded straight out of the dark ages. It was embraced from pagans and the Roman Church brought it to prevasive belief at the point of the Roman sword. Burning both those that believed in UR and destroying their writings thereby to control and manipulate the mass of common folk.

In some of the writing of the time they acknowledged their lack of belief in ET, yet embracing it's usefulness in control by fear.

Purgatory is another doctrine the RCC uses for control and for financial gain, and is not UR.

[Revelationist]

Originally Posted by crakjak

BK, the belief of "endless torture" is a bedrock doctrine of the RCC, and preceded straight out of the dark ages. It was embraced from pagans and the Roman Church brought it to prevasive belief at the point of the Roman sword. Burning both those that believed in UR and destroying their writings thereby to control and manipulate the mass of common folk.
.

Control by fear....