Try to have this conversation with some of the people I know! They get downright militant about it. US is a "CHRISTIAN NATION" - no two ways about it. Even though you certainly could not prove that by her current laws, lawmakers, citizens, etc., so many still hold to the notion that the US is a christian nation and should be run like a theocracy. Sheesh!
When prayer was removed from schools and judges are okaying homosexual marriage, this is far from a Christian nation.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Zionism, as the True torah Jews explain, is having a nation in Israel that does not abide by God's law. Remember, these Jews tell us that Zionism is an atheistic governing system for Israel and has traded obedience to God's law for nationalism.
Whoever believes Israel as a nation today is God's plan is simply incorrect, as I once was. I studied the issue and came to Deut 30 where we read that until Israel obeys God's laws, God will not regather them to the land. These Jews against Zionism claim that this is the reason there are always wars over there and no peace, because God will ensure their attempts fail if these people try to make the nation, themselves.
They claim God is making the entire world suffer because of it!
I believe Christians need to stop supporting Zionism in any form. Again, what kind of witness are we when we support something that the true Law-keeping Jews are totally against?
Sincere believers and preachers support Israel as a nation today, but they are gravely mistaken.
Like the Jews against Zionism, I am against Israel as a nation outside of adherence and obedience to God's Word.
If Jews can depart from the truth regarding Israel and digress into nationalism...can American Christians do the same with Christian Fundamentalism and the reconstruction of America according to what some call, "Biblical principles"?
Just a thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkstokes
I think that this has already happened here in the US.
It actually seems comical to me that so many Christians put so much hope and faith in the political system of the US.
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Originally Posted by mfblume
Some Chirstians think America is God's holy land today! Folks, God is done with holy lands. He seeks people to worship Him instead in spirit and in truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaamez
Try to have this conversation with some of the people I know! They get downright militant about it. US is a "CHRISTIAN NATION" - no two ways about it. Even though you certainly could not prove that by her current laws, lawmakers, citizens, etc., so many still hold to the notion that the US is a christian nation and should be run like a theocracy. Sheesh!
Now we are going into dangerous territory!
I ain't disagreeing, I am just saying it is dangerous territory!
(At least as far as this board is concerned!)
Orthodox Jews are against Zionism, that should tell you something right off the bat!
I am against how they are going about setting up the nation.
God did say there was going to be a nation of Israel, but he also said he would set it up.
I always think we redeemed Apostolics will rule the world.
It just will not be in are own strength or in our own way.
Does that clear things up?
hmm..... interesting.
I am for the existance of Israel because it is the only democracy in the middle east and we need more of that not less.
I think the word "Zionism" has become a pejorative and most folk dont even know what it means, or think it means that Jews are trying to kill all the muslims or take over the world or something crazy like that.
So what is it about "how they are setting it up" that bothers you?
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I am for the existance of Israel because it is the only democracy in the middle east and we need more of that not less.
I think the word "Zionism" has become a pejorative and most folk dont even know what it means, or think it means that Jews are trying to kill all the muslims or take over the world or something crazy like that.
So what is it about "how they are setting it up" that bothers you?
When you read the Jews against Zionism writings, themselves, they claim Deut 30 says God will reinstate Israel as a nation only when they are in obedience to His commandments. These jews say that any attempt of man to make a nation of Israel outside of adherence to God's law is rebellion against God. And they actually believe God is causing their attempts to fail in the middle east for this very reason.
They are staunch about this:
Quote:
Rabbi Avraham Yoshe Freund of Nasoder Rebbe
Once before the Neila prayer on Yom Kippur Rabbi Avraham Yoshe Freund of Nasod said:
"It is not because they are Zionists that they are evildoers. It is because they are evildoers that they are Zionists."
The purpose of the Jew is to bear witness to the existence of G-d, through his adherence to the Torah. The Al-mighty granted the Jews the land of Israel as the particular setting which would serve as the most conducive atmosphere to their performance of their duties to G-d.
The Jews in ancient times were banished from the land of Israel because they had failed to fulfill their obligations to the Al-mighty. Every Jew acknowledges this in his prayers (Umipnei Chatoeinu Golinu Meiartzeinu). They accepted the penalty of exile and were at that time expressed sworn by the Al-mighty not to accelerate their redemption on their own, and especially not to rebel against the nations under whose rule they were found. To the contrary, every Jew is commanded to pray for the peace and well being of the government of which he is the subject.
...
With the acquisition by the Zionist nationalists of the power to organize communities in Palestine, they formed the Vaad Haleumi Leknesset Yisroel (National Jewish Council Committee). This committee ignored the rights of the Orthodox veteran dwellers who did not recognize this validity of Jewish nationality, and whose identification as Jews was solely with their loyalty to their religious heritage. The religious inhabitants, on the other hand, shuddered at the prospects of spiritual disintegration of World Jewry, with the new rise to power of the Zionist nationalists.
The Orthodox inhabitants actively objected to being subject to the authority of the secularists. They appealed their cause to the League of Nations, who consequently granted them a "Right of exclusion" to the subjugation to the Vaad Haleumi, which rights provided that any Jew wishing not to be incorporated into the Vaad Haleumi, may remain lawfully independent if he so stated his wish in writing. Thousands of Jews did so.
Such was the case until November 1948, when the United Nations finally sanctioned the establishment of a Zionist State. We do not doubt that their success in finally realizing their goal was due in great measure to their having misled the world into viewing the Zionist cause as the Jewish cause. The formation of the Zionist state resulted in the automatic deprivation of the autonomy heretofore possessed by the Orthodox inhabitants of the Holy Land.
The Zionists grasped in the acquisition of their new powers, the opportunity to openly disassociate themselves from any identification with Jews as a religion. They systematically began to orient the minds of their generations according to the tenets of Zionist nationalism. Through the Ministry of Religions they employed part of the Rabbinate to assist them in their aims.
The religious Jews who by virtue of their faith, clearly contradicted Zionist nationalism, and who had lived peacefully with their Arab neighbors for generations, became unwillingly identified with the Zionist cause and their struggle with the Arabs. They requested the United Nations that Jerusalem be designated as a defacto international city. They appealed to the diplocatic corps assigned to Jerusalem -- but to no avail. They were hence confronted with the choice of either becoming a part of the Zionist State, which diametrically opposed the interests of Jews as a religion, or abandoning the land of which their forefathers were the first Jewish settlers.
We find it of supreme importance to emphasize that we are fearful of the consequences of the Zionist rebellion against the Creator, as stated expressly in Jeremich, "For it is bad and bitter your renunciation of G-d..." We wish not to be affected by the behavior of this government who in the name of Israel, persist in their renunciation and utter disregard of religious Judaism such as is clearly attested by their laws expressly permitting wanton autopsies (Law of Anatomy and Pathology, 1953), forcible desecration of the Sabbath (Law of Emergency Labor Draft 1967: PPS 1, 19; 27, 36), profanation of Holy Sites by retaining non-religious custodians, desecration of Holy Cemetaries by Safed, Beth Shearim and elsewhere, and countless more examples, proof of which is readily available.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
When you read the Jews against Zionism writings, themselves, they claim Deut 30 says God will reinstate Israel as a nation only when they are in obedience to His commandments. These jews say that any attempt of man to make a nation of Israel outside of adherence to God's law is rebellion against God. And they actually believe God is causing their attempts to fail in the middle east for this very reason.
Brother Blume, I am about as enamored with this group as I am Christian Domemion (sp) theology.
I am more interested in talking about Zionism or the creation of Israel as a nation. and insuring the terms are spelled out accurately.
What Israel does as a nation as it relates to how they structure their nation is up to them.
I am not sure what your point is here, maybe you could clarify, but how they structure their nation is either upon God's Word or atheistic secular manners. It is an important issue due to this very important distinction. Zionism is atheistic. They stole the term "Jew" and applied it to themselves, as the orthodox Jews will tell us. A Jew is not a Jew unless that person lives by the Old Testament law of Moses.
So, creating Israel as a nation as it is today is absolutely against the Law of God according to the religious and true Torah-keeping Jews. Our advocacy of Israel as a nation should reflect whether or not God is behind it.
I was amazed to notice that after years of personally noting that God could not have been behind Israel's formation as an independent state in 1948, since Deut 30 forbids it, taht these true Torah keeping Jews have stated that all along!
Quote:
"Furthermore, the Torah teaches (Deuteronomy 30:3) that G-d will be the One to redeem us from exile. The Talmud explains further that any human attempts to bring an end to the Jewish exile will fail. To support such an attempt, made by Jews ignorant of their own Torah and Talmud, is not supporting the Jewish people."
How can we believe God gathered them to Israel when the true law keepers say it is rebellion against God? It would be God violating His own Word! The whole issue is whether or not God is behind it. I think many believers are severely mistaken in thinking He is!
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
They get downright militant about it. US is a "CHRISTIAN NATION" - no two ways about it. Even though you certainly could not prove that by her current laws, lawmakers, citizens, etc., so many still hold to the notion that the US is a christian nation and should be run like a theocracy. Sheesh!
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