If Physical Death is Final?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Bro Blume, consider the following verse…

Colossians 1: 16 and 20.
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Simple question…

Will God reconcile all things unto himself; yes or no?

Obviously not in the way you are thinking. Bro. you sound UR to me, devil's advocate claims or not. lol

This is what UR does. It takes ALL outside of any context as though everything that exists is in view and every instance means UR.

TO RECONCILE means the purpose is in view to do so. But that does not mean all will respond to that purpose and accept it. ALL can be saved by the blood, but choice in the matter is up to the individual.

So, although the blood was shed in order TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS, it does not mean all will be reconciled.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Obviously not in the way you are thinking. Bro. you sound UR to me, devil's advocate claims or not. lol

This is what UR does. It takes ALL outside of any context as though everything that exists is in view and every instance means UR.

TO RECONCILE means the purpose is in view to do so. But that does not mean all will respond to that purpose and accept it. ALL can be saved by the blood, but choice in the matter is up to the individual.

So, although the blood was shed in order TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS, it does not mean all will be reconciled.

So your answer is, "No". God fails to reconcile all things unto himself.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Obviously not in the way you are thinking. Bro. you sound UR to me, devil's advocate claims or not. lol

lol

My wife tells me the same thing sometime when I argue for facts from the opposition. Bro. Blume…I just want to know the truth. I test things, try them, push them, and examine them. Then I ask questions. That’s just the way I study things. And I hold fast to that which is good.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

So your answer is, "No". God fails to reconcile all things unto himself.

Correct, but that is not a failure on God's part. God wanted it that way -- choice.

Like I said, you cannot say God failed if His purpose was TO RECONCILE all to himself and all are not reconciled. The means He chose in making it our choice did not fail! We chose and some did not. All who chose did choose.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

lol

My wife tells me the same thing sometime when I argue for facts from the opposition. Bro. Blume…I just want to know the truth. I test things, try them, push them, and examine them. Then I ask questions. That’s just the way I study things. And I hold fast to that which is good.

Okaaaay, but it sure sounds like you lean that way pretty much.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Okaaaay, but it sure sounds like you lean that way pretty much.

When I try something, I wear it well.

I'll tell you what I told a good friend of mine on the subject... I sure wish it were true, and it makes sense. But I have questions.

When I want answers...I push pretty hard. I could argue the 19 points of Satanism from Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible too. lol Of course I'm not a Satanist and I have no interest in it.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Correct, but that is not a failure on God's part. God wanted it that way -- choice.

But I see a flaw in that reasoning. First, the vast majority of human beings that have been and are lost have never heard the Gospel. There wasn’t any “choice”. Now, UR on the other hand holds that after death all are presented a choice to repent and come in alignment with God’s will after they have been adequately punished for their sins. Of course UR holds that eventually, in the dateless future, all souls will bow and confess to the glory of God that Jesus is their Lord and King.

For example…a little girl is dying right now in Africa of some disease as we speak. She’s 17 years old and has never heard the Gospel. You propose that she will die and be tortured for all eternity because she was born at the wrong place at the wrong time. UR resolves that issue rather justly.

Like I said, you cannot say God failed if His purpose was TO RECONCILE all to himself and all are not reconciled. The means He chose in making it our choice did not fail! We chose and some did not. All who chose did choose.

If God’s purpose was to reconcile all things to himself…and all are not reconciled…God was thwarted and his purpose adequately defeated by his creation. God failed to accomplish that which he purposed to do. The only way out of this is to propose that God only purposed a select few for salvation (being all knowing he must have if you’re right). But that would be moving into the realm of Calvinism and divine election.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

But I see a flaw in that reasoning. First, the vast majority of human beings that have been and are lost have never heard the Gospel. There wasn’t any “choice”. Now, UR on the other hand holds that after death all are presented a choice to repent and come in alignment with God’s will after they have been adequately punished for their sins. Of course UR holds that eventually, in the dateless future, all souls will bow and confess to the glory of God that Jesus is their Lord and King.

For example…a little girl is dying right now in Africa of some disease as we speak. She’s 17 years old and has never heard the Gospel. You propose that she will die and be tortured for all eternity because she was born at the wrong place at the wrong time. UR resolves that issue rather justly.

If God’s purpose was to reconcile all things to himself…and all are not reconciled…God was thwarted and his purpose adequately defeated by his creation. God failed to accomplish that which he purposed to do. The only way out of this is to propose that God only purposed a select few for salvation (being all knowing he must have if you’re right). But that would be moving into the realm of Calvinism and divine election.

Incorrect. God decided that MEN WOULD CHOOSE to serve Him or not. And He laid out the cross for all men to be able to be reconciled by their choice. If they chose not, then so be it. Nothing of God's plan failed. Failure is not in the equation at all if the blood COULD reconcile all by the choice of all. The choice of God was to have the blood able to reconcile everyone who willed. And this did not fail. You cannot remove the choice of man in this.

There is no flaw in my logic here.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

When I try something, I wear it well.

I'll tell you what I told a good friend of mine on the subject... I sure wish it were true, and it makes sense. But I have questions.

When I want answers...I push pretty hard. I could argue the 19 points of Satanism from Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible too. lol Of course I'm not a Satanist and I have no interest in it.

I see your point, but I think it is a dangerous approach to take. Deception can creep in, you know.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Correct, but that is not a failure on God's part. God wanted it that way -- choice.

Like I said, you cannot say God failed if His purpose was TO RECONCILE all to himself and all are not reconciled. The means He chose in making it our choice did not fail! We chose and some did not. All who chose did choose.

God made man as he is, he has presented Himself as He is, if between these two facts 99% of mankind is lost, how does that not equal a failure on God's part?

I don't believe God failed that dismally, therefore God is not finished with His creation, and tradition is seriously mistaken. It is called deduction, logical, and reason, which God gave mankind, as well as choice. Choice does not excel above God's purpose of "Savior of the whole world".