and I dont agree at all. Nothing there says that Israel has to be set up with as some kind of religious nation based upon an overtly religious set of laws.
God said he would gather and turn their hearts to him.
Incorrect. God said they first must obey his command and THEN God would work with regathering them.
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I know more than the average person about the history here. How Israel becamse a nation is well within the relm of the Miraculous. You have to ignor quite a bit to suggest that God had no hand here.
You have got to ignore the bible to think God had a hand in this. This is what the Torah Keeping Jews are trying to say.
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I could go on. I will stop there. I dont agree with you AT ALL that Israel as it is currently constituted, isnt by Gods will. I dont know that and neither do you.
And at the end of the day, I still suspect that your goal here is that we step back from support of Israel as a nation entirely. That really bothers me.
Don't resort to changing my intentions when I distinctly said anyone can support Israel all they want, but not for religious reasons.
I am amazed you choose to ignore what the actual law keeping Jews are saying about all of this in light of the Old Testament. They are screaming to the world to realize antisemitism is caused by Zionism, and it is a cause that makes these religious Jews look like they're behind something they hate. They are hollering to us that Zionists are bringing on persecution against the jewish people more than anything else in the world today.
And they see Christians supporting a Zionist Israel, and wonder what maniacal nonsense we are going on with in saying God is behind it all when they know for a fact that God's own Word forbids such an act from God.
We have a great witness, bro!
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Ferd, many times I have been out of God's will, but not once was I out of his care!
That is the issue!
God's will. That doesn't mean he will let Israel get squished by it's enemies no different than God isn't allowing the US or Canada become vaporised because we allow gay marriage & abort babies.
I think also Bro Blume is saying & correct me if I am wrong, that we don't need to support Israel for religious purposes, but for practical or humanitarian purposes much the same that US supports Canada!
Am I right?
YES.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
I will say that they have every right to defend themselves against any attacks. In my flesh, like Ron, I would like them to take down Iran, etc.
However, I am disgusted that so many Christians send millions of dollars to Isreal, instead of helping out the widows and orphans that are in their own churches.
__________________
If ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24
Mone me, amabo te, si erro
No real problem exists over the use of "The Name" in everthing else done in the Church. Why then should there exist great controversy over the use of the "The Name of the Godhead" in water baptism?
Kevin J. Conner The Name of God p. 92
The desire of Jewish people to have a nation of thier own (Namely Israel) is the reason for antisimitism in the world today.
THAT is what that sign means. But what it suggests is that there is further neferious meanings behind the word "Zionism".
You miss the point every time. Israel was created in the Old Testament times by GOD. God dictates what should and should not happen with Israel. Did you even read my words?...
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Originally Posted by mflbume
It is like God starting the church, and then after centuries the church wishes to cast away all requirements of God involved in it, and simply be another social club among many. In some senses this is exactly what happened in some denominations. At any rate, that would be technically ridiculous.
Israel was never meant to be like other nations.
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Traditional Jews Are Not Zionists
Although there are those who refuse to accept the teachings of our Rabbis and will continue to support the Zionist state, there are also many who are totally unaware of the history of Zionism and its contradiction to the beliefs of Torah-True Jews.
"As late as 1943, while the Jews of Europe were being exterminated in their millions, the U.S. Congress proposed to set up a commission to "study" the problem. Rabbi Stephen Wise, who was the principal American spokesperson for Zionism, came to Washington to testify against the rescue bill because it would divert attention from the colonization of Palestine."
Israel wanted a king and palace and throne like the other nations in Samuel's day. God told Samuel they rejected God.
Ferd, in all due respect, you do not know as much as you should know about the issue, and should read the writings of the Jews Against Zionism to understand more perfectly what you really do need to know. I did not know this either until a week or so ago. Wow It is important information!
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Deuteronomy 30:1-3 KJV And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Not until Israel turns to God will He gather them. Not after He gathers them, but before. Their turning to God incites God to gather them. How can someone miss that?
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Ive registerd my disagreement and that is enough. I firmly believe this is an intentional attempt to lessen support for the current nation of Israel. I find that dishartening. I also believe that we will see a slow but steady drumbeat to back away from Israel over the coming years and eventually without vigilence Israel will come under a withering attack.
That disgusts me.
Let me address this one point, Brother Blume you suggest that I ignor these religious jews who agree with you. Well you ignor many religious jews how are members of the Kenesit! Not all religious Jews agree with this little group you found on the internet.
I also disagree with various christian sects who make silly claims about America and the end of the world and other anti-America things.
There are folk in this world who would argue that fat meat is greasy. I generally dont give them much time. same here.
you boys have a nice day and lament Israel all you want. Im not buying what your selling.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I firmly believe this is an intentional attempt to lessen support for the current nation of Israel. I find that dishartening. I also believe that we will see a slow but steady drumbeat to back away from Israel over the coming years and eventually without vigilence Israel will come under a withering attack.
I cannot believe you say this after I distinctly said anyone can support Israel if they wish, but to do so for religious reasons as though they are helping God's cause is wrong.
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That disgusts me.
What disgusts me is accusing us of false intentions.
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Let me address this one point, Brother Blume you suggest that I ignor these religious jews who agree with you. Well you ignor many religious jews how are members of the Kenesit! Not all religious Jews agree with this little group you found on the internet.
These are the Orthodox Jews. They can read Deut 30 as plainly as anyone else. I am surprised at how Deut 30 can be twisted to say what some people think it says.
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you boys have a nice day and lament Israel all you want. Im not buying what your selling.
That's between you and God, Ferd.
You have judged the matter without having checked it out and researching the Jews against Zionism's claims carefully.
Great witness!
Again:
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Originally Posted by mfblume
Deuteronomy 30:1-3 KJV And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
My personal opinion is that you refuse the plain reading of these verses.
...as if we wanted Israel destroyed. LOL
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Well, we heard from some Christian Zionist perspectives. Any other Chirstian Zionists around?
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
I am for the existance of Israel because it is the only democracy in the middle east and we need more of that not less.
I think the word "Zionism" has become a pejorative and most folk dont even know what it means, or think it means that Jews are trying to kill all the muslims or take over the world or something crazy like that.
So what is it about "how they are setting it up" that bothers you?
this was my second post in this thread. it provides the context of my view concerning the modern nation of Israel.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
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