If Physical Death is Final?

[Scott Hutchinson]

While the parables were mentioned check this out.
http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=parable

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Not everyone will be “saved” according to UR. Jesus came to save men from God’s judgment. Many will be lost to the Kingdom of God and face God's judgment in Hell. However, UR believes that eventually, perhaps in the dateless future, in ages untold, God will reconcile all creation unto himself. Those souls who experience Hell’s punishment will be broken down into absolute surrender to God’s authority. In that day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to God’s glory. Hell is very real, it’s no joke. The time spent in Hell cannot be measured in human terms…it is horror beyond horror, however UR underscores that in the end the cross will have been victorious over all sin and death…for all.

Hell is still very real and there isn’t a set and measurable period in which one is in Hell. Hell is a horror beyond description. However, it serves a purpose other than fulfilling God’s love for torture 17 year old Hindus who never had a chance to hear the Gospel.

When Jesus speaks of the sheep and the goats, both of these groups are placed into a degree of subjection because they are given titles of animals before the Lord. Neverthless, the goats are told to depart. Here we have an example of subjection -- yet they are told to depart. Even the devils know that he is LORD. Nevertheless, they have already reached the point of reprobation. People also can be turned into reprobates.

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Let's face it there is no bible verse that plainly states all will be saved eventually it is ? Please show me if there is.
The atonement is made for all men,but all men won't believe.

This is a good point.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

While the parables were mentioned check this out.
http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=parable

Nevertheless it can be pointed out that Christ used terms of justice indicating that punishment lasts until one has paid the penalty for their sin.

Again, my point is that while one may not agree with UR...they're position is a viable interpretation.

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Nevertheless it can be pointed out that Christ used terms of justice indicating that punishment lasts until one has paid the penalty for their sin.

Again, my point is that while one may not agree with UR...they're position is a viable interpretation.

Come out of the closet!

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Come out of the closet!

Bro, I know you have the brainpower to understand that I'm generating conversation and pressing the issue for discussion. Yes, I have questions. But I'm finding out that most don't have any answers. lol

I assure you, I'm not UR. My point, if you go back and read some of my earlier posts, was that UR believers are our brothers and the view can be respected even if we disagree.

I can formadibly argue both Rapture views too. lol

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Bro, I know you have the brainpower to understand that I'm generating conversation and pressing the issue for discussion. Yes, I have questions. But I'm finding out that most don't have any answers. lol

I assure you, I'm not UR. My point, if you go back and read some of my earlier posts, was that UR believers are our brothers and the view can be respected even if we disagree.

I can formadibly argue both Rapture views too. lol

Thank you for your reply

Antipas/Aquila

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Thank you for your reply

Antipas/Aquila

I hope it helps. Most just don't understand my method of operation. I'm a lot like the college theology professor that opens his class on biblical theology by saying that he's an atheist and will instantly pass any student who can prove that there's a God. lol

What I see around here is a bunch of,

"Wa, your doctrine is of the devil, we're right and you're wrong! Now believe like us or burn in Hell. Oh, by the way...I love you 'cause Jesus says I have to." lol

I think that's a lame way of presenting the truth. I like a deep, scholarly, philosophical, discussion that considers validity of each point and argument. If I see a view under represented and being trashed with straw men arguments...I like to push it and force the issue to TRY to get sound answers.

So far... I'm disappointed in what I'm seeing among those who believe in a literal eternal Hell. For example, Blume proposed that it's just because it's all based on "choice". However, the majority of people who will burn in Hell forever didnt' choose Hell over Heaven...they never heard the Gospel. So that argument means nothing.

Here's an interesting question...does God want to see a 16 year old Hindu girl who never heard the gospel or hand a chance to obey and be saved burn in absolute torments endlessly? Does he enjoy that? What MAKES God HAVE to do that? What is God subject to that FORCES Him into such behavior?

I've brought this up before...we disdain Hitler's ovens...but they are nothing compared to God's Hell where countless souls who never had a chance will burn in agony and torture forever. It's funny how limited we expect a God who can do anything to be.

On a side note...practical experience is also interesting. Near death experiences don't seem to always jive with our fundamental understanding of Scripture. Yet these experiences, and the elements contained therein, are nearly universal among all cultures. What's going on?

It's possible that there's far more going on here than the back woods Pentecostal religion's perspective accomodates.

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I hope it helps. Most just don't understand my method of operation. I'm a lot like the college theology professor that opens his class on biblical theology by saying that he's an atheist and will instantly pass any student who can prove that there's a God. lol

What I see around here is a bunch of,

"Wa, your doctrine is of the devil, we're right and you're wrong! Now believe like us or burn in Hell. Oh, by the way...I love you 'cause Jesus says I have to." lol

I think that's a lame way of presenting the truth. I like a deep, scholarly, philosophical, discussion that considers validity of each point and argument. If I see a view under represented and being trashed with straw men arguments...I like to push it and force the issue to TRY to get sound answers.

So far... I'm disappointed in what I'm seeing among those who believe in a literal eternal Hell. For example, Blume proposed that it's just because it's all based on "choice". However, the majority of people who will burn in Hell forever didnt' choose Hell over Heaven...they never heard the Gospel. So that argument means nothing.

Here's an interesting question...does God want to see a 16 year old Hindu girl who never heard the gospel or hand a chance to obey and be saved burn in absolute torments endlessly? Does he enjoy that? What MAKES God HAVE to do that? What is God subject to that FORCES Him into such behavior?

I've brought this up before...we disdain Hitler's ovens...but they are nothing compared to God's Hell where countless souls who never had a chance will burn in agony and torture forever. It's funny how limited we expect a God who can do anything to be.

On a side note...practical experience is also interesting. Near death experiences don't seem to always jive with our fundamental understanding of Scripture. Yet these experiences, and the elements contained therein, are nearly universal among all cultures. What's going on?

It's possible that there's far more going on here than the back woods Pentecostal religion's perspective accomodates.

Well

I do not necessarily oppose it because of the choice issue. Nevertheless, Jesus said those who hunger and thirst after righteousness would be filled. Thus, a person who intently looks for it -- the Lord will ensure that he/she finds it.
For various reasons, I oppose it--I will only list a couple:

1st: The book that you listed as a source bases the majority of its arguments on the argument of silence. In others words, because it was not mentioned we should assume that everyone took it for granted. These arguments are very weak -- we could also assume the other side of what they are saying. (honestly -- I have not read the whole book -- so he could later expand and not just use the argument of silence)

2nd: In your and the UR eyes, the tricky word "eternal". I do not see it so slippery a word. In every credible greek source/dictionary whenever the word eternal is used with life or death -- it is also used in the same sense with the very being of God. If one diminishes it with death, then one must also be willing to do that with life and God.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Well

I do not necessarily oppose it because of the choice issue. Nevertheless, Jesus said those who hunger and thirst after righteousness would be filled. Thus, a person who intently looks for it -- the Lord will ensure that he/she finds it.
For various reasons, I oppose it--I will only list a couple:

1st: The book that you listed as a source bases the majority of its arguments on the argument of silence. In others words, because it was not mentioned we should assume that everyone took it for granted. These arguments are very weak -- we could also assume the other side of what they are saying. (honestly -- I have not read the whole book -- so he could later expand and not just use the argument of silence)

2nd: In your and the UR eyes, the tricky word "eternal". I do not see it so slippery a word. In every credible greek source/dictionary whenever the word eternal is used with life or death -- it is also used in the same sense with the very being of God. If one diminishes it with death, then one must also be willing to do that with life and God.

Consider the combination of using "aionios" with "kolasis". I was facinated by how the language allowed for alternative meaning. "Everlasting punishment" or "aionios kolasis" can be translated accurately as being, "eternal correction". The term kolasis is often used in Greek literature in reference to pruning, setting trees straight, and vine dressing. It's often used to describe remedial action taken to make a thing right. The meaning of "aionios" will be dependent upon one's interpretation of "kolasis". That's where a significant part of the battle ground is.