What A Mess!

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by tstew

I don't believe there should be any bailout of any type to any industry without measures in place that changes the practices that got them in this position in the first place.

it might be too painful to do what you suggest where the Auto industry and the UAW is concerned.

The industry itself has lots of power and the UAW has even more power.

Congress wont go against them. period.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Ferd

There is a part of me that wants to be for the unions.... and part of me that wants to be for the companies.


but here is what I know. these 3 automakers combined have in the neighborhood of 21,000 people one their books that are making $30+ per hour and they arent doing a blessed thing.

They are in what is called a Job pool (Timlan posted a link to a story about it). The report to this job pool and sit on their butts all day and watch movies and work crossword puzzels and get their check and keep their benifits.

THAT is a problem caused by 1. Unions and 2. Company Mis-management.

and that is just one of the problems.


These companies are paying their executives somewhere around Fifty million bucks a year (maybe more) all the while their stock prices are falling thru the floor. It is sick. And all us stock holders are taking it like a bunch of morons.


Light, your wrong about the Union. They need to be exploded. But you are right about the management of these companies. They need to be exploded too.


Fact is, the only way to get anywhere near fixed in this mess is to force them into Chapter 11 bankruptsy and for congress or stock holders to hold the management teams responsible and fire them all with NO parachute.

Then while in Chapter 11, the companies under new management can renegotiate all contracts (Union and non-union) and come up with a structure that keeps their workers employed while still making these companies profitable for the stock holders.


I have zero hope this will actually happen.

I agree 100% with ya Ferd!

Good honest & fair assessment!

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Ron

Okay, let's say for arguments sake that the New World Order & the coming of the Lord is a way off in the distance & we are stuck here to "eke" out an existence until Jesus returns, We are still in a mess!!!!

Talk on the talk radio is about the big three Auto Makers & thier struggle to keep out of Chapter 11!

Speculation now is that Congress & the Canadian Parliament will let them go into Chapter 11, restructure, & then look for somebody to come along and get it at a fire sale cost, & buyers will relocate those plants overseas.

What does that mean?

1. 2-3 million direct & indirect jobs will be gone.
2. Pensions (including benefits which are some of the best in North America) will be gone!
3. Who will be able to afford cars if we all work at 7-11?

We are in serious times where I believe we will pray for the coming of the Lord!

Ron, you have one part of this wrong. Chapter 11 allows the companies to stay in business and to renegotiate contracts and restructure their debt.

It doesnt kill the company.

Chapter 7 would kill the company, liquidate the assets and end up with thse losses you are talking about.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Ferd

it might be too painful to do what you suggest where the Auto industry and the UAW is concerned.

The industry itself has lots of power and the UAW has even more power.

Congress wont go against them. period.

As thier companies implode, thier clout & influence will implode as well!

I ain't seen a begger on his deathbed be able to have negotiating power with those that have the power to save them.

JMHO

[Ferd]

One more point. The Japanese and European car companies who own and operate plants in Southern states are paying good wages and offer competitive benefits.

What they arent offering is pensions that they cannot pay and benefits to "retired" workers who are in their mid-fifties.

The business model works both for the car company and the employees and the stock holders.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Ron, you have one part of this wrong. Chapter 11 allows the companies to stay in business and to renegotiate contracts and restructure their debt.

It doesnt kill the company.

Chapter 7 would kill the company, liquidate the assets and end up with thse losses you are talking about.

Thanks for the correction!
I am a GM man myself so I do hope they don't drift away, but to continue on with no changes is not even an option for consideration.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Ron

As thier companies implode, thier clout & influence will implode as well!

I ain't seen a begger on his deathbed be able to have negotiating power with those that have the power to save them.

JMHO

Actually Ron, Larry Kudlow said it best last night. Bankruptsy is as American as Apple pie.


all the big Airlines have gone thru these kinds of bankruptsys and are still flying and still in business.

American Airlines is a perfect example.

the fact is, when you owe someone 5 BILLION dollars, you have clout. LOTS of clout because that someone wants their $$$$. They will do anything for you to get your money.

[Nahum]

Two words:

Greatest Depression.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Light

To loan money to the big three would be wise. The one big reason the Republicans won't go along is because they want to bankrupt the unions.
If people will stop listening to republican propaganda and think for themselves,things would be different.

Toyota is non union with way lower wages yet their cars are priced the same as a comparable car made by the big three. Union wages are not the cause or even part of the cause.

Toyota put their plants in right to work states to avoid paying union wages.

Texas is a state where you have the right to work for some of the lowest wages of any state. Grown men working at our refineries in Corpus for $ 8.00 Hr. What a shame yet they vote republican. Go figure!!!

Light, please see my other post here. I dont want to seem to be just bashing unions. but I did some checking.

considering both wages and benifits, the big three auto makers pay somewhere between $70.00 per hour and $75.00 per hour.

The Japanese Automakers operating factories in the USA are paying about $48.00 per hour.

Now we can agree that they arent paying union wages. and we can agree that they located their plants in places where they can avoid their shops being unionized.

But where we dont agree is if that is fare or not. $48.00 per hour works out to be about $99,000 bucks a year without any overtime. AND these plants are often located in places where the average salrey is far below that (Like between $20K per year and $40K per year).

So the workers now making $99K this isnt a bad thing for sure. Plus Autoworkers working in these Japanese plants arent worried about their jobs being cut.

Now on the managment side, a year ago, while GM was losing money Toyota made 13 billion bucks.

http://www.gmforum.com/online/t12137/

[Apprehended]

[QUOTE][QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Light

How many children have you adopted???????? When you have adopted 3 or 4 you let me know and I will see if I can get you an $8.00 hr job. Your sarcasm is duly noted as well as your intelligence. How does a family feed, cloth and shelter on what you think is a good wage?

Goodness, it appears that I struck a raw nerve.

I just did as you told me to do. I went to figure and I came back with what I figured.

I figure that there are some decent people that care enough for the millions of children that have been butchered by the Democrats that they are willing to vote for anybody, whether they be man, beast or a robot who wll promise to appoint constructionist judges to the bench, which is the only possible way to overturn Roe v. Wade and stop the river of blood flowing from these abortion clinic.

Here is what you said that I responded to:

Texas is a state where you have the right to work for some of the lowest wages of any state. Grown men working at our refineries in Corpus for $ 8.00 Hr. What a shame yet they vote republican. Go figure!!!

What have you done to help stop abortion? Talk is cheep and I hear cheeping sounds when you post.
PS this thread is not about abortion.

Cheeping sounds?

I agree that talk is cheap. That's why I voted REPUBLICAN since they gave me a hope that the killing can finally come to an end; the great American haulocaust. While there is not much that I can do to stop the death march of these Democrats, I did vote. I have written letters to law makers. I have begged and spoken against it with great passion. I've done all that I know to do. I would do more if I knew what I could do to stop the killing.

I figured that given a choice for working for 8 dollars an hour and given a chance to stop the death mills, these good men chose the 8 dollars an hour in hopes that there might be a cesation of the violence of the bloody knife.

In regards to my intelligence which you questioned:

"The THIEF commeth not but to steal, KILL and to destroy..." Whatever my intelligence level may or may not be, I had enough intelligence to not cast my vote with those THIEVES who have come to STEAL LIFE and KILL little children. Whatever intelligence that I might lack, at least, there is no shared death culpability on my part for having placed my active support with my vote to condemn another fifty million babies to death.

It may be that my post pricked your conscience and you felt angered from that. It happens. I offer no apology. Neither did I even mention their MAD push to give the homosexuals equal rights including the right to marry. I didn't even mention THAT. Without apologies, I VOTED AGAINST all of that chosing to work for 8 dollars an hour and LESS.

Go figure.