One of the Biggest Mistakes

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by commonsense

Control issues is an understatement.
I'm very familiar with two churches (different cities/states) that insist on never missing a service or you're backslid for sure. Nothing wrong with church attendance, but one should have the ability to make personal decisions without condemnation from the pastor and/or saints.

#1 A young married convert was bleeding heavily (female situation) and did not think she'd be able to come to church that evening. She called pastor to tell him and was told she had to be there. Same gal called another time due to horrible weather conditions and she had a long drive ; called pastor and he told her they'd send someone to get her----she couldn't miss -------
(Driving was very dangerous and her husband did not want her to risk it.)

Did I mention her husband was unsaved and saw no need to be a part of this church. This church did not allow any personal commonsense and you were doomed for hell if you missed a service..no exceptions.
Today she still serves God but it's at an AOG church and her whole family attends together.

#2 Every service reiterates attendance. You cannot miss and be saved.
A young girl does very well in school and wishes to continue doing so. If she asks to miss a Wed service due to a school assigment or whatever her father goes ballistic.( christianity at its finest).
Class project> to portray a famous person of your choice. She chose Aimee SimpleMcPherson. The final production took place on a church night.
Her dad would not go....can't miss church.; her mother represented family.
They bought the VHS tape and I viewed it long after the event. She did an absolutely fantastic job, but her dad missed it! To my knowledge he has never even seen the tape. Church comes before family. (again no commonsense allowed)

She's a senior in college and no longer attends a UPC assembly.

Yes, there ARE many churches that use power and control to keep you saved!


Regardless of what state I lived in;commonsense ruled in my decisions!

But thank God that not all UPC are like that... my own brother has missed church for his son's school functions.... and he is the pastor.

God is first, family second, church is next..

[ILG]

Originally Posted by jtork

Who says you have to pay your tithes to the church you attend all the time???? There have been times when we have paid our tithes to other ministries and one weekend we were out of town and my husband bought a bunch of stuff and donated it to a homeless shelter for our tithes - I know a preacher better never send somebody to my house to collect tithes. I think these pentecostal organizations should do what other organizations do - pay pastors a salary through the organization - would keep them from forgetting what they are there for!!!!

At the risk of being ostracized futher by some people on this board, I figure that after pastoring for free for 8 years and paying most of the church bills ourselves, we can get by without paying tithes for a while and be just fine.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by ILG

I think one of the biggest mistakes that the UPC makes is the emphasis on church, church, church rather than family. People are expected to come bare minimum of 3 services a week, just so they are not "forsaking the assembling" and then there are the bible studies, door knocking, bake sales, singing, etc. etc. etc. on top of it all. I have heard it said that some pastors emphasize a family night one night a week (mine did not). So, are the other 6 to be used for church?? There is little teaching on marriage, family, balance etc. Alsmot all the teaching, in my experience, is on Acts 2:38, going to church, winning the lost, giving and giving and giving to the church.

I don't think it has ever been God's will for people to spend so much time at church and doing church things. We need to focus on our families, our kids, our marriages, our work etc. This is the work of God. That should not be forgotten.

The remedy is balance, balance and more balance. Heresy is truth out of balance.

Even as a pastor I try to be sensitve to people and where they are in energy level. Frankly as a bi-vocational pastor I get tired and about 2 services a week is all I can do. There comes a line that if I cross I will be no good to anyone, my energy level will be low, my focus lower and my anointing even less.

Currently we have 3 services a week, I am trying to cut one down (Sunday PM) but guess what, when I try to more people keep showing up.

On holidays or other functions that we have during the week, I do try and cancel the Sunday PM service.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by jtork

Who says you have to pay your tithes to the church you attend all the time???? There have been times when we have paid our tithes to other ministries and one weekend we were out of town and my husband bought a bunch of stuff and donated it to a homeless shelter for our tithes - I know a preacher better never send somebody to my house to collect tithes. I think these pentecostal organizations should do what other organizations do - pay pastors a salary through the organization - would keep them from forgetting what they are there for!!!!

Well scripture does for one, look I am not legalistic about this, but I think it to be a tragedy for someone to be a recepient of spiritual offerings from ministry, then not want to share their material wealth with the people that feed them spiritual things (1 Corinthians 9).

I am not above taking care of those other needs (para-church, missions), but when you attend a certain church on a regular basis and not tithe there then you are a not living up to your responsiblilty, which is sinful.

[StMark]

ILG, don't take my question offensively, I'm just wondering why you are concerned?? Y
ou are no longer in UPC so you don't have to adhere to anything UPC anymore.

In my growing up years, I would agree with you to an extent. We went to church ALL THE TIME.
Funny thing is, no one complained then. Everyone seemed to love it a lot more then they love church today.
Our nation might be a better place IF people went to church a little more instead parking their butts in front of
TV watching MTV and playing X box ( youth).

I don't think most UPC churches have too much church these days.
the long revival meetings have been eliminated. Long services are gone.
Friday nights are gone. many have ended sunday nights.
Wednesdays are more than half empty in many UPC churches. what else do you want??
Have church once a month for 45 min ?

There's 168 hours in a week. Our church for instance totals less then 6 hours a week.
that leaves our members with 162 hours for family time. I don't think that's unreasonable do you ?

Ever consider that maybe attending church together IS family time as well???

[ILG]

ILG, don't take my question offensively, I'm just wondering why you are concerned?? Y
ou are no longer in UPC so you don't have to adhere to anything UPC anymore.

Because I spent almost my whole adult life there and it affected me deeply. I hope to spare someone else the pain I went through and the mistakes I made.

Ever consider that maybe attending church together IS family time as well?

Sure, it is. But God set aside one day a week for worship. That was all.

[StMark]

Originally Posted by keith4him

The remedy is balance, balance and more balance. Heresy is truth out of balance.

Even as a pastor I try to be sensitve to people and where they are in energy level. Frankly as a bi-vocational pastor I get tired and about 2 services a week is all I can do. There comes a line that if I cross I will be no good to anyone, my energy level will be low, my focus lower and my anointing even less.

Currently we have 3 services a week, I am trying to cut one down (Sunday PM) but guess what, when I try to more people keep showing up.

On holidays or other functions that we have during the week, I do try and cancel the Sunday PM service.

You said it well Keith. You mentioned balance but you also included wisdom in what you said. Balance and wisdom. Those are the 2 things I try to impliment even with the choir I am over. Things will tilt one way or the other. If you have too much church, you burn people out. If you have too little of church, people can get too worldy. again, it's a balancing act.

Our pastor dismissed church the entire week last week for the holidays.
I don't know of too many UPC churches that do that to be honest.
Our Sunday night services are only an hour and 1/2. Since we don't drag it out for hours and hours, we get a decent crowd back for sunday nights.

Our Rehearsals are only one hour. Other directors ask me how in the world do I get so much done in one hour. First of all, after an hour, the peoples' minds drift off. they can only obsorb so much information and retain so many songs. I know directors who go on and on and on. some go for 3 hours. Everyone is not that dedicated. The director has to have a plan of action. I come very prepared with a plan.

[StMark]

Originally Posted by ILG

Because I spent almost my whole adult life there and it affected me deeply. I hope to spare someone else the pain I went through and the mistakes I made.




Sure, it is. But God set aside one day a week for worship. That was all.

I know several people who are what I call "burned out fields". their pastors drilled it into them to be in every revival service, every activity,etc. and after years of it, unless the Lord works a miracle,they are permanant burnouts.

however, please don't shadow box. All UPC churches are not like that.
I would safely say that 1/2 of our members only come on Sunday. Like most UPC churches, our church runs 600+ on sunday but lucky to have 200 on Weds night.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yeah, I guess I understand that...and you have a point. I do wonder sometimes though if there is any approporiate way to point out an issue that I believe affected me and my life and husband and kids deeply, because of UPC teachings, so as to try and help someone else avoid the mistakes we made and have them look at it and say "Well, yeah, we could probably improve a bit in this area." Especially the pastors who are still teaching this. My intention is not to bash anyone, but to spare people the pain and mistakes I made. Maybe I should have entitled the post One of the Biggest Mistakes I Made....but then that would be to say that I listened to something I shouldn't have and that would probably not fare well with some either.

ILG,
Gosh so much to say! We all have so much we feel and want to say!

We've all posted together and have fond affection for each other as friends, so that makes us want to be careful how we discuss issues - BUT we all have very strong opinions and want to express them!

I believe the bottom line is that we all feel we have to do what is best for our own self preservation - all the while - making sure that "preservation" lines up with the "will of God".

I have been hurt in the UPC and I have seen people hurt - some have left, others have stayed. I can't make a judgment call on anyone's decision. Just have to do what I feel my heart and His Spirit are telling me.

Having said all of that - sometimes your posts come across as not being able to get past the hurt of your experience. I'm just going to be as honest in my expression as you have. I believe you would want that.

You are saying you want to help others, by sharing your experiences, so they won't make the same mistakes, but I don't read where it does help. It seems to only keep a wound open. Now, that's just how I am reading it. Others may not.

When I read your posts I'm thinking of all the times I've been in your situation and God moved the men/women out of my life or just moved me. The times when He spoke to me and said, "No weapon formed against you shall prosper." I never had to walk away from those that hurt me. His truth and His Spirit fought for me.

So, for me, when people say the best thing to do is walk away - I've never had to do that and I don't think the Organization is broken - so I don't get the walking away as an answer in my life.

I'd like to get into some down and dirty stories, but the strength of - when you've done all, stand, with your loins girt about with truth - would totally be lost.

We can only spare people the pain when we share the victory through the storm. For instance, I was under a pastor that was committing adultery with several women in the church. The Lord opened His Word to me and showed me His power, His strength, His love, His mercy.......He hung the earth upon - nothing! He showed me that in Job during that time. I was a new convert.

Did I want to leave - you bet!!! But His Spirit said, "Stay and see it through." That man wasn't the representation of the UPCI. He only represented what carnal man is capable of. Don't we know that?!

What I'm trying to say is that if we have a bad experience - let's show the power of God and how he worked on our behalf during that experience. We stand as having no hope in his power if we only reflect the bad. God has to be in that somewhere. Right?

If I am reading past you, then this is a good place to share your heart and where, perhaps, you are being misread!

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by StMark

You said it well Keith. You mentioned balance but you also included wisdom in what you said. Balance and wisdom. Those are the 2 things I try to impliment even with the choir I am over. Things will tilt one way or the other. If you have too much church, you burn people out. If you have too little of church, people can get too worldy. again, it's a balancing act.

Our pastor dismissed church the entire week last week for the holidays.
I don't know of too many UPC churches that do that to be honest.
Our Sunday night services are only an hour and 1/2. Since we don't drag it out for hours and hours, we get a decent crowd back for sunday nights.

Our Rehearsals are only one hour. Other directors ask me how in the world do I get so much done in one hour. First of all, after an hour, the peoples' minds drift off. they can only obsorb so much information and retain so many songs. I know directors who go on and on and on. some go for 3 hours. Everyone is not that dedicated. The director has to have a plan of action. I come very prepared with a plan.

To cancel a whole week of services, for a church as large as yours that is significant. I wanted to ask you something, now I can't remember what it is.