Why Does God Give the Baptism of the Holy Ghost?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Once again TR misses the forest from the trees.

We all accept that silence does not benefit either side in this long standing debate ...

but was is normative can be clearly seen in Scripture....

No one can deny that believers repent ... normative
No one can deny that believers are baptized .... normative

No one can deny that our new birth is being born from above ... or by the Spirit of God ... which is the only reference found in John 3 ... as there are no indications Jesus spoke of water baptism.

No one denies a believer is filled by the Holy Spirit.

What you cannot demonstrate through the 21 conversions in Acts that each one spoke in tongues ... or that each infilling was initially evidenced through tongues.

There is no normative pattern ... other than 3 instances that also included magnifying God and prophecy ... which are not salvific in the heretical and false paradigm you espouse.

I will find repentance ... baptism and a Spirit-filled believer throughout Scripture ... Gospels, Acts, epistles ...

Yet you still hang on 3 verses to establish that every believer must talk in tongues to prove they are filled with the promise of the Holy Ghost and may go as far as to say if one does not speak in tongues one is hell-bound.

Tongue talking .... as a necessary sign to prove salvation ... a normative experience for every believer in all instances... NOPE ... a futile attempt.

It's a hoax ... we were taught ... and many an Apostolic preacher will vouch for it ....that every conversion in Acts was evidenced with tongues ... and that's a lie.

It's a real, biblical experience ... but adding to the Word has serious consequences and I fear you are.

I'm hearing the same tired recycled arguments from you.
Same animal, dressed in different clothes.

I wont even bother to respond much further on this.
In the end, you wont see what you don't want to see anyway, so I'll just save the time and energy.

Maybe someone else might want to get into it further, but I'm done here.

Meanwhile, have a nice night, DA.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I'm hearing the same tired recycled arguments from you.
Same animal, dressed in different clothes.

I wont even bother to respond much further on this.
In the end, you wont see what you don't want to see anyway, so I'll just save the time and energy.

Maybe someone else might want to get into it further, but I'm done here.

Meanwhile, have a nice night, DA.

Okay ... I'll give you an out ... show me half of the conversions resulted in tongues. A quarter?

You don't have BIBLE. You're out of the Book.

TR, truth is ... you believe that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost, correct?

And that one is not saved without receiving the Holy Ghost, right?

Are you any more Apostolic than an extrabiblical faithful Catholic?

[KWSS1976]

My deal I guess is why does the petecostals practice this and the majority of the others do not they are reading the same thing as the petecostals are. I am not saying one is wrong or right just why the major diffrence on this paticular subject..

[deltaguitar]

I believe in the gifts of the spirit and speaking in tongues.

I consider myself a pentecostal.

However, after growing up 27 years in the upc and having been a part of many frenzied altar calls I am not so sure that I ever really spoke in tongues. I can say that God has touched my life in ways that I will never be able to explain and I have felt the awesome feeling of him holding me in his arms and picking me up after I had almost given up on him completely.

There has been a lot of pain and confusion in my life because I always thought God was angry at me or that I wasn't good enough to receive his spirit. I loved him and wanted to fellowship with him but I thought that meant "getting in the spirit".

The truth. He was there all the time. His spirit was there but I was focused on an experience and not true relationship. He was being patient just waiting for me to accept him and receive the joy, peace, and fulfillment that only he can give.

As soon as I stopped seeking tongues and just collapsed in his arms and gave him everything he started working in my life.

Honestly, I don't see the difference in those who have the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues any more than many of my sold out Christian friends that I have never heard speak in tongues.

I do think that we should seek for and accept everything that God has for our lives but I can't seek for something at the cost of my faith and relationship with him.

Oh yeah, I do consider myself to have God's Holy Spirit living in me and working in my life.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

Peter said "repent and be baptized" in response to a specific question, "what shall we do?"

"Repent and be baptized" seem to be things we do.

Is Holy Ghost infilling something we do?

Repent and be baptized = my responsibility.
and ye shall receive = God's responsibility

Am I wrong?

There seems to be two commands and a promise.

Are there other scriptures that command us to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

That is it exactly Ed. If we repent and are baptized in Jesus name, God promised the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I don't think there are any scriptures that say the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a command. Is God commanding Himself?

[MissBrattified]

Daniel, do you believe in tongues? What was your Holy Ghost experience? Did you speak in tongues? Do you believe it's only a gift, as in one of the gifts of the Spirit, like messages in tongues? What do you believe comprises the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and what is the purpose of tongues?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Daniel, do you believe in tongues?

Yes.

What was your Holy Ghost experience?

I was born again, from above, by the Spirit of God (gennoa anothen) when I placed my faith in the Work of the Lamb, Jesus Christ for salvation He afforded. (See John 3)

Did you speak in tongues?

Yes, much later. On October 4, 1981.

Do you believe it's only a gift, as in one of the gifts of the Spirit, like messages in tongues?

Yes.

What do you believe comprises the baptism of the Holy Ghost,

All I know is what the bible says about it.

1 Cor. 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

Some say this is the believer's baptism into the Body of Christ, which happen's at the point of faith.

However, there are many Christians who claim to have had this "secondary" experience of the Spirit. They say that it has brought great blessing and comfort to them. Furthermore, they say that the results of the experience is a renewed dedication and appreciation for God, a stronger desire to read the Bible, a stronger desire to fellowship with Christians, and a deeper sense of worship of God.

While others say the evidence of tongues is the only sign that that indicated receving the Holy Ghost thus this experience is necessary for salvation.





The term "baptize with the Holy Spirit1" occurs several times in scripture:

• Matt. 3:11, “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
• Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
• Luke 3:16, "John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
• John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’"
• Acts 1:5, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
• Acts 11:16, "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’"

We can clearly see that the phrase baptized by the Spirit is used in the Bible. But, we do not find a clear teaching in the Bible of what the phrase means. Therefore, the debate continues.

Nevertheless, we can conclude that when a person is baptized in the Holy Spirit he has power bestowed upon him. This power is for the purpose of the preaching of the gospel in the first century (Acts 4:31).

Also, it has been accompanied by speaking in tongues ... but only in a handful of instances. There is not conclusive evidence tongue talking is normative as repentance and baptism are.

Acts 2:4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

The issue now seems to be whether or not Baptism of/in/with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent event occurring after salvation.

the purpose of tongues?

As is true of all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the purpose of the gift of speaking in tongues is to edify the Church. I Corinthians 14:4-5. However, this edification can be accomplished in several different ways, as the scriptural examples and instructions regarding the gift attest.

For instance, in Acts 2:4-8, the Spirit demonstrated His presence and activity to a crowd of unbelievers by using an outpouring of messages declaring "the wonderful works of God" in human languages unknown to the speakers, but known to the hearers.

Similarly, the manifestation of tongues — apparently without interpreters — in Acts 10:44-46 edified the Church by showing the Apostles that Gentiles had been accepted into it on the same terms as Jews, thus demonstrating its unity. Again by contrast, the manifestation of tongues in Acts 19:6 edified the Church by reassuring the speakers that they were a part of it. On the other hand, I Corinthians 14:6 indicates that other gifts — revelation, knowledge, prophecy or teaching — may be presented through messages in tongues, although such messages, if given during organized worship, are to be presented only in an orderly way and with an interpreter present so that all may benefit from the message. I Corinthians 14:13-19, 26-28. Finally, I Corinthians 14:1-5 appears to indicate that speaking in tongues is a form of spiritual communication with God by which an individual believer may edify himself.

Lastly, It is not a sign for believers, as some have made it in the 3 step paradigm ... as a benchmark to being saved ...

but rather for unbelievers.

Lastly, Jesus said that tongues is a sign that follows believers (Mark 16) as does casting out demons. Was Jesus making exorcisms salvific?

The gift of the Holy Ghost is ...
IS A PROMISE ... A GIFT .... NOT A COMMAND.

We agree, Ed.

[Scott Hutchinson]

This is something to consider,ok the disciples did preach before Pentecost,but after the ascension they had to receive the Holy Ghost before continuing ministering,so after one repents they like the disciples should receive the Holy Ghost before trying to be a witness.ACTS.1:8,9.
This is a question if one has to have the Spirit of Christ to be one Of His,then when does one receive The Holy Spirit ?
Where the bible make a difference between receiving and being baptized with The Holy Ghost ?

[Scott Hutchinson]

This is an interesting read.
http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Spirit.html

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Okay ... I'll give you an out ... show me half of the conversions resulted in tongues. A quarter?

You don't have BIBLE. You're out of the Book.

TR, truth is ... you believe that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost, correct?

And that one is not saved without receiving the Holy Ghost, right?

Are you any more Apostolic than an extrabiblical faithful Catholic?

Thanks for giving me an out, sir. That's almost funny.
(eyeroll)

I dont want to get on this merry-go-round all over again, but allow me to show you where you keep missing it. Something tells me it wont do a bit of good (then again, maybe someone else reading this might benefit), but here goes anyway:

You keep saying that most of the "conversion" passages do not mention them speaking in tongues. Ok... but you seem to ignore this simple fact... Many of the instances that speak of people being "converted" do not describe the moment when they got the Holy Ghost (and many dont even describe when they got baptized)... It just speaks of them "turning to the lord", being "added to the church", etc. in general terms. So because it's very silent regarding what happened when they got the Holy Ghost, you cant make a tongues argument one way or the other based on those scriputures, because they are silent regarding the persons' Holy Ghost infilling. Thus the whole premise of your argument is fatally flawed. Now, most of the same passages that dont speak about them getting the Holy Ghost/speaking in tongues also dont speak of them getting baptized, and many dont even specify that they repented! So if we're going to use your line of argument, and make assumptions based on what's NOT said, we can end up out in left field with some really offbeat beliefs and doctrines.

It makes more sense to look at the instances where it DOES speak specifically about them receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and look at the pattern of what happened in those instances ...(rather than looking at general instances of " a great number believed, and turned to the Lord", Acts 11:21 , or Lydda and her household coming to the Lord, Acts 16, etc)

Your argument is based on a faulty premise to begin with, and faulty premises will always lead to faulty conclusions.
Really, I dont know why you seem to always want to pull me into these silly and circular 1 stepper/3-stepper arguments. Frankly, you're wasting your time if you think you can ever convince me of the 1-stepper position.

I'm convinced that in the end, time will prove me to be correct on this.
The greatest friend of the truth is time.