Covering:Veil or Hair: Part II? Answers Inside - Page 7

LUKE2447 · #61 01-21-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro. If the angels are looking for anything it's modest submitted women. The neglect of the head covering in the first century was just the issue that underscored the deeper issue, honoring headship.

So tell me, if my wife doesn't wear a magic doily will she be lost? lol

Can the be colorful?

What if I (her head) ask that she not wear a magic doily? hehehe

I am not going to anwer your stupidity anymore. You attempt to negate divine order with other modesty! Congratualtions!

LUKE2447 · #62 01-21-2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro, the entire passage is an instruction addressing uncovered women in the worship service.

I am arguing against that how?

Aquila · #63 01-21-2009, 01:36 PM

Luke, relax bro. You're really sold out on this head covering thing aren't you? That's cool bro. But the question remains... what about those of us who don't observe this? Are we lost?

LUKE2447 · #64 01-21-2009, 01:55 PM

brother, I don't decide that. I just report what I am told to do and not to do. Doesn't mean I don't love ya and think less of ya but in the end it is what it is. How God judges our ignorance is bigger than me.

Aquila · #65 01-21-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

brother, I don't decide that. I just report what I am told to do and not to do. Doesn't mean I don't love ya and think less of ya but in the end it is what it is. How God judges our ignorance is bigger than me.

That's fair.

Did I ever tell you that I used to have my wife wear a second covering?

LUKE2447 · #66 01-21-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

That's fair.

Did I ever tell you that I used to have my wife wear a second covering?

Nope, didn't know that. Maybe it's something you should allow her to choose again.................... LOL!

Michael The Disciple · #67 01-21-2009, 02:03 PM

And my wife also covers in the meetings.

Aquila · #68 01-21-2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Nope, didn't know that. Maybe it's something you should allow her to choose again.................... LOL!

LOL

No seriously bro. My standard was that there had to be a "token" of authority upon her head and it had to be "cloth". I didn't care if it were a veil, snood, bonnet, doily, part of a barret, ribbon, or what. My standard was when she was in church she was to wear some form of cloth in her hair. She didn't see it, but bless her heart, she did it anyway for a long time, because she loves me. I allowed her to use different styles and colors to coordinate with her outfits. We were attending an ultra conservative church. Bro, we didn't play or watch sports because we didn't believe in fresh air. I mean, there was no phone, no light, no motor car, not a single luxurie. I was on the verge of disengaging all media, including radio and the computer. But then I had a son. The retention rate of the church's youth department was less than 6%. Yes, 94% or more of our youth FLED the church upon graduating. That troubled me as a parent. It was so strict bro, I can't begin to tell you. Men were expected to wear white shirts with no more than one pocket. You were expected to be "dressed up" all the time. If spotted in jeans you were asked why. My wife and I began to suffer from spiritual burnout, and we're still recovering. One night I was expected to lead service and my wife was on the praise team, she rushed out of the house and forgot her "token". Bro, we were running late and I snapped. I began to curse and berate her, demanding that she never act so spiritually irresponsible again. By the time we got to church my precious wife was sobbing and in tears. I demanded that she stop sobbing and that she clean herself up and try to find something to use in her hair at church before approaching the platform. I watched her wipe her tears and pull herself together like a good soldier. I'll never forget her shake her head yes while gazing down when I demanded that she find something to put in her hair. I realized that I was abusing her over a cloth. I was hurting a woman, the woman I loved, a daughter of God... over a cloth. I began to seek the Lord on it and he began to show me a better way. He began to show me that Paul's issue wasn't a focus on a cloth, but rather modesty and submission. For the first century Christians the women were abandoning what was proper and modest. This rebellion from modesty and submission is what crossed them up with God, not the fact that they abandoned a cloth. It was their spirit not a doily or veil that God was concerned with. There isn't anything magic in the hair or in a cloth. God began to reveal to me many things about that church and the extent of abuses that we tolerated because we thought that it was par for the course, the narrow path, if we expected to be saved. Today we're not attending that church. We're still healing and we're still hurt in many areas. But I know this much... I will never again become entangled with a religion that is built on external focus and pleasing men with token jestures or talismanic magics of hair or doilies. I've found Jesus. And I'm learning for the first time what it means to live in the shadow of the cross.

LUKE2447 · #69 01-21-2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

LOL

No seriously bro. My standard was that there had to be a "token" of authority upon her head and it had to be "cloth". I didn't care if it were a veil, snood, bonnet, doily, part of a barret, ribbon, or what. My standard was when she was in church she was to wear some form of cloth in her hair. She didn't see it, but bless her heart, she did it anyway for a long time, because she loves me. I allowed her to use different styles and colors to coordinate with her outfits. We were attending an ultra conservative church. Bro, we didn't play or watch sports because we didn't believe in fresh air. I mean, there was no phone, no light, no motor car, not a single luxurie. I was on the verge of disengaging all media, including radio and the computer. But then I had a son. The retention rate of the church's youth department was less than 6%. Yes, 94% or more of our youth FLED the church upon graduating. That troubled me as a parent. It was so strict bro, I can't begin to tell you. Men were expected to wear white shirts with no more than one pocket. You were expected to be "dressed up" all the time. If spotted in jeans you were asked why. My wife and I began to suffer from spiritual burnout, and we're still recovering. One night I was expected to lead service and my wife was on the praise team, she rushed out of the house and forgot her "token". Bro, we were running late and I snapped. I began to curse and berate her, demanding that she never act so spiritually irresponsible again. By the time we got to church my precious wife was sobbing and in tears. I demanded that she stop sobbing and that she clean herself up and try to find something to use in her hair at church before approaching the platform. I watched her wipe her tears and pull herself together like a good soldier. I'll never forget her shake her head yes while gazing down when I demanded that she find something to put in her hair. I realized that I was abusing her over a cloth. I was hurting a woman, the woman I loved, a daughter of God... over a cloth. I began to seek the Lord on it and he began to show me a better way. He began to show me that Paul's issue wasn't a focus on a cloth, but rather modesty and submission. For the first century Christians the women were abandoning what was proper and modest. This rebellion from modesty and submission is what crossed them up with God, not the fact that they abandoned a cloth. It was their spirit not a doily or veil that God was concerned with. There isn't anything magic in the hair or in a cloth. God began to reveal to me many things about that church and the extent of abuses that we tolerated because we thought that it was par for the course, the narrow path, if we expected to be saved. Today we're not attending that church. We're still healing and we're still hurt in many areas. But I know this much... I will never again become entangled with a religion that is built on external focus and pleasing men with token jestures or talismanic magics of hair or doilies. I've found Jesus. And I'm learning for the first time what it means to live in the shadow of the cross.

Sad to hear about your experience! I understand your point that it is not all about the veil and again it not being just about the veil does not negate the veil. Your issue with her not having a covering def could be looked at in the Spirit of the Law. God knows the heart beyond the veil. Though he sees it and will still love you and use you it doesn't negate a good approach before him. God accepts the sinner and the saint by faith. The veil in itself is the symbol of that faith not of judgment. As I have said before I don't get technical and if she forgets........ God understands and knows her heart. Her faith is the relationship and it is symbolized not incarnated in the veil.

Aquila · #70 01-21-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Sad to hear about your experience! I understand your point that it is not all about the veil and again it not being just about the veil does not negate the veil. Your issue with her not having a covering def could be looked at in the Spirit of the Law. God knows the heart beyond the veil. Though he sees it and will still love you and use you it doesn't negate a good approach before him. God accepts the sinner and the saint by faith. The veil in itself is the symbol of that faith not of judgment. As I have said before I don't get technical and if she forgets........ God understands and knows her heart. Her faith is the relationship and it is symbolized not incarnated in the veil.

I'm just no longer sold on talismans, tokens, symbols, and sacraments. I believe that the most beautiful thing about the Christian faith is that it is so dynamic it isn't locked into a cultural mold, it' can flurish anywhere. Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, you name it all have their "token" dress standards ranging from jewelry to clothing and even head coverings. It's all of the world. We walk by the Spirit. The women in Paul's day renounced the veil and were thereby appearing immodest and bringing dishonor on their husbands. Their refusal to be modest was upsetting the divine order of authority and prevening them from approaching God in proper relationship. So for them, this issue was an example, they were to obey and wear the veil. But 2,000 years later on the other side of the planet in a different culture altogether, I don't believe it applies literally. However, we still address modesty and those women who reject it dishonor their husbands and cannot approach God in proper relationship.

It's like a beard. The Bible does't condemn beards. But for many years pastors set a standard against beards because of their worldly associations. In American culture, the beard was a symbol of rebellion. Hippies and bikers were the poster children for beards. It became an issue of submission and separation from the world. However, today things are changing. It's not seen like that so much anymore, therefore we're seeing more pastors allow beards. Paul set the head covering standard in the first century Corinthian church to preserve modesty and submission. But as time passed it became less and less relevant. Today, it would just be an empty religious observance that is considered "quaint" by outsiders and a reason to feel more holy than the next guy by those who observe it.

Let's not fail to see the forest for the trees.