Monopoly on Apostolic Identity is no more ....

[edjen01]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If you broke from the Catholic Church for what you believe to be doctrinal truth... would you preach against them?

Many of these men "preaching against the UPCI" might be viewed historically as "reformers" in a few generations.

are you meaning like Luther and the Reformation?

Do you actually think the UPCI has made a big enough impact to make an historical difference?

[edjen01]

Originally Posted by Innocuous

When I hear of groups making issues of their 'dinstinctives' and their 'identity' I'm reminded of settlers who circled the wagons. When the wagons are circled the wagon train aint goin anywhere. The problem is that once wagons are circled they generally don't get back in a straight line. It's a death knell.

"PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that."

The bells began tolling in earnest for the UPC in 1992. The UPC has lost the vision and it's mission has changed.

If the UPC is obscure now (on the larger landscape of Christendom), give it another ten years and see where it is then if they continue on this path. God is willing to snuff out the UPC candle and move on.

you really believe that the UPCI's "candle" was lit by God??

and if He's into "snuffing" out organizations....why would He not start with some others?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by edjen01

was the change ok....and just the way it was done unethical and deceitful?

ex-upcers are free to exercise thier 1st ammendment rights.

My question is why?

The change would never had been made if not for the deceit. The whole affair was forced upon the org. and even some of those who went along with it at the time would find themselves standing before the General Conference one year later asking forgiveness for the things they had said. But no move was ever made to actually reconcile the brothers who had be shirked. Instead our own brethren were called "excrement" by that resolution's author and tossed out as if that's what they were.

And this is "holiness?"

Your question of "why?" - For myself, I feel now that I was deceived into joining an organization and giving the most productive years of my life to advance the ministries of men who wanted to simply use my youth and enthusiasm for their own cynical ends. I sacrificed and went years without a salary and preached for burned out ministers who were too lazy to crack a Bible but who were always "holier" than I.

I poured out myself to build a church and rally people around the gospel only to see those same people treated like the same kinds of "excrement" that my fellow ministers were treated like. "Why?" Lamentations 1:12-22

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Pel, Ferd agrees with you. He used a double negative in his sentence.

Thanks Mizzie - sorry Ferd. I'm at work and "multi-tasking..."

[StillStanding]

Woe be it when a main emphasis of an organization is to maintain it's distinct culture with it's youth! Have we somewhat taken our eyes off the mission, which is to spread the gospel to every creature around the world?

Heaven help us!

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

Woe be it when a main emphasis of an organization is to maintain it's distinct culture with it's youth! Have we somewhat taken our eyes off the mission, which is to spread the gospel to every creature around the world?

Heaven help us!

The Gospel is Changed Lives...amen and amen...

[Innocuous]

Originally Posted by edjen01

you really believe that the UPCI's "candle" was lit by God??

and if He's into "snuffing" out organizations....why would He not start with some others?

I do believe that at one time the UPC, and others, had a vision and a mission to do something God wanted them to do. But I think they've strayed off that path and recent leadership has only exacerbated that trend.

God has certainly snuffed out his Spirit from orgs and left movements. Men keep them going and, but for the most part God isn't there any longer. This is nothing new, the OT is full of this sort of thing.

[EA]

Interesting thread.

I will not be going through my usual contortions here.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Their distinctive was compromised by a huge push right after the merger to establish one group's "identity" at the expense of the other. But if you don't agree that '92 was deceitful then you may not be that familiar with the events and the things that were done.

It was all done to "sanitize" the identy of the UPC and purge the PCI influence. When I was first licensed, every UPC minister was required to read the writings of John Dearing. Brother Dearing was excised and cut out without comment right after '92. Most of the resolutions and moves since the merger have beeen done to undermine an eclipse the influence of the "PCI's" approach to things.

Pela, re-read my comment. I said I dont disagree with you about 1992.

but that is still a vastly different thing that what DanA is bringing up here. We arent talking about doctrine we are talkiing about women wearing pants and such.

I have always said 1992 was a bad deal. Some men I love dearly were cut off because of that.

this is still apples and oranges.

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The change would never had been made if not for the deceit. The whole affair was forced upon the org. and even some of those who went along with it at the time would find themselves standing before the General Conference one year later asking forgiveness for the things they had said. But no move was ever made to actually reconcile the brothers who had be shirked. Instead our own brethren were called "excrement" by that resolution's author and tossed out as if that's what they were.

And this is "holiness?"

Your question of "why?" - For myself, I feel now that I was deceived into joining an organization and giving the most productive years of my life to advance the ministries of men who wanted to simply use my youth and enthusiasm for their own cynical ends. I sacrificed and went years without a salary and preached for burned out ministers who were too lazy to crack a Bible but who were always "holier" than I.

I poured out myself to build a church and rally people around the gospel only to see those same people treated like the same kinds of "excrement" that my fellow ministers were treated like. "Why?" Lamentations 1:12-22

And there it is...

Bitterness...Disappointment...and Desperation...

Just causes more than likely... but to what end?

I decided a long time ago I would look past man...because man will always disappoint you... but God never will...

It is difficult but to get ahead it musts be done...whatever situation you are in...