I believe in freewill, that being said: Since God is all knowing, I believe He knows who will be saved. Naturally we have free will, but in God's vastness, He know's ALL things.
If God knows literally everything that's going to happen, then it's like He's playing a record on a phonograph. (You youngsters might have to google that to find out what it is! ) The groove yet to be played is already there, waiting its turn. It is what it is, and nothing can change it. I might think I can "change" something in the future (I decide what to have for lunch, e.g.), but is that really true? Can I decide something, if it's already there, encoded in the groove?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
If God knows literally everything that's going to happen, then it's like He's playing a record on a phonograph. (You youngsters might have to google that to find out what it is! ) The groove yet to be played is already there, waiting its turn. It is what it is, and nothing can change it. I might think I can "change" something in the future (I decide what to have for lunch, e.g.), but is that really true? Can I decide something, if it's already there, encoded in the groove?
That is precisely what it means to be Omniscient, I believe. It's kind of like knowing ALL the possible moves in chess for any given scenario. Then knowing your opponent so well that you KNOW what move he will make before he even makes it and before you make yours. You are not determining, you are knowing. Now, suppose I choose not to work with that knowledge...I believe only God can completely do that.
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"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
God exists in eternity, as well as in this lateral one way thing called "time". He knows whats going to happen because he's already been there by the time we get there.
I've always believed that predestination (not Calvinism, but biblical predestination) was a real thing. What trips most people up is that biblical predestination is not at all incompatible with free will. God predestinates based on His perfect advance knowledge of the freewill choices we will make. "Whom He foreknew, them he did predestinate..." (Romans 8:29) It's not predestination in lieu of free will, but predestination as a consequence of freewill.
Because God is not bound by time -- He exists both within and without time, and knows all things perfectly and completely before they come to pass -- He is able to exercise His elective prerogative IN ADVANCE of the human exercise of free will. "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." Before either of them had done anything. But this election-in-advance-of-freewill in no way undermines or invalidates free will -- it's just that God doesn't have to wait, as we would; He knows our decisions before they are made; indeed, before we are born. 1st Peter 1:2: ] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:"
Election that operates purely out of God's sovereignty does happen on a group level -- for example, the covenant will operate through Abraham's seed through Isaac and Jacob, and not through Ishmael or Esau. He chose the nation of Israel, not because of any thing they thought, said, or did -- but because of God's sovereign choice.
Where Calvinism messes up, in my opinion, is in making the broad brush of election -- a group dynamic -- apply on a personal level. Many are called, but few are chosen -- and the difference between them lies in how they respond (of their own free will) to the call. The man without the wedding garment was thrown out because of how he chose to show up -- not as an arbitrary selection/election.
OK, that's all I'll say!
__________________ You can't reach the world with your talents. People are sick and tired of religious talents. People need a Holy Ghost annointed church with real fruits to reach out and touch their lives. ~ Pastor Burrell Crabtree
In fact I think that the insinuation of "hateful" Pentecostals is coming mostly from the fertile imaginations of bitter, backslidden ex Apostolics who are constantly trying to find a way to justify their actions. ~ strait shooter
I've always believed that predestination (not Calvinism, but biblical predestination) was a real thing. What trips most people up is that biblical predestination is not at all incompatible with free will. God predestinates based on His perfect advance knowledge of the freewill choices we will make. "Whom He foreknew, them he did predestinate..." (Romans 8:29) It's not predestination in lieu of free will, but predestination as a consequence of freewill.
Because God is not bound by time -- He exists both within and without time, and knows all things perfectly and completely before they come to pass -- He is able to exercise His elective prerogative IN ADVANCE of the human exercise of free will. "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." Before either of them had done anything. But this election-in-advance-of-freewill in no way undermines or invalidates free will -- it's just that God doesn't have to wait, as we would; He knows our decisions before they are made; indeed, before we are born. 1st Peter 1:2: ] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:"
Election that operates purely out of God's sovereignty does happen on a group level -- for example, the covenant will operate through Abraham's seed through Isaac and Jacob, and not through Ishmael or Esau. He chose the nation of Israel, not because of any thing they thought, said, or did -- but because of God's sovereign choice.
Where Calvinism messes up, in my opinion, is in making the broad brush of election -- a group dynamic -- apply on a personal level. Many are called, but few are chosen -- and the difference between them lies in how they respond (of their own free will) to the call. The man without the wedding garment was thrown out because of how he chose to show up -- not as an arbitrary selection/election.
OK, that's all I'll say!
Good points. I have also heard it stated that the church/bride was predestined, but the individuals who make it up are not. That seems to fit with both ideas, at least to me.
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"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
) The groove yet to be played is already there, waiting its turn. It is what it is, and nothing can change it. I might think I can "change" something in the future (I decide what to have for lunch, e.g.), but is that really true? Can I decide something, if it's already there, encoded in the groove?
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