Do you still believe the doctrine after leaving?

[Esther]

Thank you for responding.

I am glad to hear many of you have not left the doctrine for salvation.

Although I do adhear to the standards, I do NOT believe they are essential to salvation. But as long as God has me going to a UPC I will adhear to their teachings, unless it gets way out there no longer following God.

I do not have a problem with any organization having standards they want to establish boundaries for their organization.

For me personally, I can not teach these standards as salvation. For I have found no proof of them being so.

I would teach prinicipals. You must be modest. Although that opens another can of worms, I do believe must would agree that a woman exposing her breast would not be modest, nor do I believe anyone could say wearing Daisy Duke shorts would be modest.

So I do believe everyone has a line that they can draw saying this is not modest.

Although wearing one pair of earings is not in my book excessive, I do believe wearing multiple ones would be.

Wearing all black, nail polish, lipstick, etc. to me can not even be described as looking anything but occultish. (if that is a word). But wearing colored nail polish and colored lipstick to ME in no way looks like a prostitute. But when you add the red lipstick, red nail polish, Daisy Duke's, and exposing most of the flesh does make you look like a prostitute, to me.

This is wear I think you need to shun the very appearance of looking evil, which is how the movies dress those they want to look evil, in all black. Many of the young people are doing that today and I do believe many want to achive that look.

I have found NO scripture to say you can not color your hair or your nails. Not sure what scripture anyone has ever used to support that teaching????

Maybe someone here knows what scripture they use for this and can share.

But for me the main thing is to keep the main thing, and that is the doctrine. AND you must have a LOVE for the TRUTH. Truth of what the Word says, not man's.

[HopePreacher]

I appreciate your attitude sister.

Standards became an issue to me when I began to see new believers come into our congregation and saw the effect of being pressured by the old saints to conform to their standards.

When I began to compare the spirit and attitude of the "old line saints" with the spirit and attitude of the "new saints" I decided that I didn't want the believers to adopt the same attitude as the old folks, so I didn't require them to change except where there was actual instruction from scripture.

This openness finally led to me being invited to leave the organization. I did and I haven't looked back.

[LUKE2447]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

First, a few sentences on my background: I was raised until about age 7 in a UPC church (until about 1953). Our pastor left UPC around that time. In 1959 I received the Holy Ghost in a Pentecostal Church of God at age 12. At age 16 I returned to a UPC church then went to a UPC college graduating in 1969. I pastored and evangelized in the UPC until I left the UPC in 1981. This basic outline may help you see where I am coming from.

When I quit requiring others, and myself, to live by the standards that I never did really believe, and fellowship with other believers that I never really did believe had not been saved because they didn't get it the way I did, a whole new world opened up to me.

Doesn't matter whether you believe them or not but are they based on principle teaching. I know many people that believe this and that and think you are free to do whatever you want but are in error. Worlds do open up, right or wrong when you go looking. A whole new world opened up to Adam and Eve too, in error.

- To answer the questions:
Yes I still believe in the oneness. My statement on this issue is that There is but one God and He is Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Wow, don't jump off the unity bridge statement.

[

B]- I still baptize in Jesus name[/B], but with a twist that most apostolics do not understand. Because it is recorded that Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I baptize using these words: "Upon the confession of your faith in Jesus the Christ as your savior and upon the command of Christ, In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I now baptize you into the Lord Jesus Christ." (Incidently, I am on staff of a Charismatic church and when the senior pastor found out how I baptize he decided that everyone will be baptized that way and now I do most of the baptizing in our church).

Obviously you don't! Basically you have no conviction on what the whole of the Bible says and have compromised truth for error. I bet a whole world opened up to you. Next just believe all spokes lead to hub and it will get even bigger. Then you might go on Oprah! Also IMO Matt 28:19 is a fraud and the Catholic church even admits it's not even original but that is for another discussion but way to play both sides. Your statements negate by who's power and authority by mumbo jumbo to where it looks like you say in Jesus name but you don't as you said "into" the Lord Jesus Christ and not the Name but in the "name" of F,S,HS. Will it matter? THat's up to God but you don't know and I don't either but it's not correct and error.

Here are some observations:
- Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods and they all believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

Who? People with little theological background who believe in one God and call it a Trinity or educated seasoned teachers. When it comes to the educated your wrong! Claiming one thing and the theological facts are another. Trinitarians are good at switching ships in thought to say one thing but the logical conclusion is another.

- They do not hate oneness folks because of their doctrine, they are offended at their attitude toward other believers.

Seriously that is pathetic. Sure not everyone hates but have you ever heard the venom spewed by them. Way to put everything on "us" as if we are the ones who murdered left and right to defend the Trinity throughout history. False doctrine always hates truth. Truth cuts and nobody likes to be cut. Either you lack experience in this area in witnessing to both sides of the distinction of regular Joe and theologian or simply limited to who you have talked and studied.

- Trinitarian believers teach that we are baptized into Christ, not the godhead and Christian baptism represtents that.

Way to get general for acceptance and attempt to confuse the issue. Most teach that happens before baptism at repentance in evangelical churches.

- Is Acts 2:38 essential? Yes it is; but the way many apply it is not.

Again general.

- Many in the "apostolic" churches live in compromise because they are afraid to express what they really believe for fear of being put down or being thought of as "a compromiser." Isn't it ironic that people will compromise their true feelings to keep from being called a compromiser

Isn't this true of any "group"? How about the churches that teach if you teach anything your a legalist that are popping up left and right....

- Fear is a great tool in keeping people from going forward in their understanding of God and the body of Christ.

Define and be more specific. I know baptist churches that are just as bad as some so called "legalist" churches. People trying to define what is right and and what is not is NORMAL! It's called principle teaching and application! GUESS WHAT WE ALL DO IT! We do it to our children and anybody else that listens to us complain about XYZ. Some to different levels than others. Sure some go over board to you but to others not so much. Depends on your view.

[HopePreacher]

I'm not sure of your point in this post except that it appears that you are making an attempt to tear apart my position based upon your particular logical bent. I accept that and I will let others decide on the spirit of your post.

[ChTatum]

HopePreacher, thank you for your thoughtful posts and humble spirit.

LUKE2447, when I stand before the throne, you won't be sitting on it. Thanks for bringing absolutely nothing to the discussion.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Esther

When you left the standards did you also leave the doctrine of Acts 2:28?

Do you still believe in oneness?

Do you still baptize in Jesus name?

Why do I ask?

Because a good friend of mine believes and has been taught and often seems the case that once the door is open to leave the standards the next is the doctrine.

Where do you stand?

Well, for me, yes, I left the doctrine of needing to be baptized with the name of Jesus spoken over you and needing to speak with tongues for salvation. But, people need to remember that this was not even believed by all in the beginning of the movement. Also, some leave and still retain the 3-step doctrine.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by ChTatum

HopePreacher, thank you for your thoughtful posts and humble spirit.

LUKE2447, when I stand before the throne, you won't be sitting on it. Thanks for bringing absolutely nothing to the discussion.

When did I say that I would judge you on the throne or anyone else. Seems people choose to cry the judgment card around here when they do choose. I called out what I see a post that lacks perspective of who does what and HIS pointing of the finger. You probably are in teh same boat with him so you are more inclined to his position. Which is the result of your post and his the result of mine.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

I'm not sure of your point in this post except that it appears that you are making an attempt to tear apart my position based upon your particular logical bent.

Wow, imagine that. Someone disagreed with your reasoning and questioned it according to another position you don't hold. Never seen that on a discussion board.

I accept that and I will let others decide on the spirit of your post.

Really don't care what others decide as my posting is not based popularity and whether I get a good rating or not. The Spirit of my post is questioning your thought process. Seems we all do that as error is error no matter who spews it.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

When did I say that I would judge you on the throne or anyone else. Seems people choose to cry the judgment card around here when they do choose. I called out what I see a post that lacks perspective of who does what and HIS pointing of the finger. You probably are in teh same boat with him so you are more inclined to his position. Which is the result of your post and his the result of mine.

Logical, readable, and non judgmental.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Logical, readable, and non judgmental.

Baron since when is calling error not judgmental? LOL!