Do you still believe the doctrine after leaving?

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I've also found the opposite when the oneness is presented in the right way. Too often oneness folks start out with why Trinitarianism is wrong, blasphemy and every one who believes it is hell bound. I have taught entire groups of trinitarians (even doctoral candidates) and not had any of them have a problem with oneness teaching. It's all in the presentation and attitude. The vast majority of oneness preachers should be ashamed of themselves for their exclusive, arrogant attitude toward those who are following all they have ever known. WE are the ones who are supposed to be the bridge builders if we have the truth not them. That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it!

That's interesting. I could private message you some prominent names that I've discussed godhead with. And no... the approach wasn't "you're a polytheist moron!" The approach was explaining the godhead without incendiary words like Trinity and Oneness. The Trinity is a huge traditional wall that has prevented people from freely examining the godhead openly and candidly. The response was gracious, but yes, there were the words "this is heretical doctrine, similar to Modalism." I've had that response more than a few times as well. To their credit, they are gracious, but they dismiss it has "heretical." If by "the right way" you mean it's so watered down that there is no true distinction, then you may be right. I always like to add the originator of the Trinitarian language, Tertullian, later recanted his belief and became what many consider Oneness. Ironic isn't it!

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I've also found the opposite when the oneness is presented in the right way. Too often oneness folks start out with why Trinitarianism is wrong, blasphemy and every one who believes it is hell bound. I have taught entire groups of trinitarians (even doctoral candidates) and not had any of them have a problem with oneness teaching. It's all in the presentation and attitude. The vast majority of oneness preachers should be ashamed of themselves for their exclusive, arrogant attitude toward those who are following all they have ever known. WE are the ones who are supposed to be the bridge builders if we have the truth not them. That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it!

I find it hilarious when I hear some who believe that THEIR understanding of "oneness" must be believed and understood to be heaven qualified (in addition to the other steps).
I've always understood their to be ONE God (who manifested Himself in several ways), yet to hear hyper-intellectual "oneness" folks talk and debate, I walk away wondering why the moon is not purple considering that it is made of cheese (even though there is no purple cheese -another mystery), which is slowly being eaten away by a giant statue of Donny Most and Anson Williams.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Many Oneness people think Modalism is wrong.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esther

When you left the standards did you also leave the doctrine of Acts 2:28?

Do you still believe in oneness?

Do you still baptize in Jesus name?

Why do I ask?

Because a good friend of mine believes and has been taught and often seems the case that once the door is open to leave the standards the next is the doctrine.

Where do you stand?

Yes, I believe these things still. And several years have passed now.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I find it hilarious when I hear some who believe that THEIR understanding of "oneness" must be believed and understood to be heaven qualified (in addition to the other steps).
I've always understood their to be ONE God (who manifested Himself in several ways), yet to hear hyper-intellectual "oneness" folks talk and debate, I walk away wondering why the moon is not purple considering that it is made of cheese (even though there is no purple cheese -another mystery), which is slowly being eaten away by a giant statue of Donny Most and Anson Williams.

I agree. However, to denigrate Christ as one member of a familial godhead (Jehovah Jr) is not correct. The bottom line is that we recognize that God became flesh (like you and I) and died for our sins, and that flesh was Christ -- and in Him is the fullness of the godhead bodily. We confess He is divine and LORD. How you want to answer the Garden prayer, talking about what roles the Father, Son, HG played, etc... have fun. But He was revealed, and He was given a name that's above all names.... Jesus! I think there's much more liberty here to understanding the godhead. But the minimum is calling Him LORD. The Trinitarian creed describing the godhead is most definitely suspect and lacking harmony with the OT.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne View Post
I find it hilarious when I hear some who believe that THEIR understanding of "oneness" must be believed and understood to be heaven qualified (in addition to the other steps).
I've always understood their to be ONE God (who manifested Himself in several ways), yet to hear hyper-intellectual "oneness" folks talk and debate, I walk away wondering why the moon is not purple considering that it is made of cheese (even though there is no purple cheese -another mystery), which is slowly being eaten away by a giant statue of Donny Most and Anson Williams.

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

I agree. However, to denigrate Christ as one member of a familial godhead (Jehovah Jr) is not correct. The bottom line is that we recognize that God became flesh (like you and I) and died for our sins, and that flesh was Christ -- and in Him is the fullness of the godhead bodily. We confess He is divine and LORD. How you want to answer the Garden prayer, talking about what roles the Father, Son, HG played, etc... have fun. But He was revealed, and He was given a name that's above all names.... Jesus! I think there's much more liberty here to understanding the godhead. But the minimum is calling Him LORD. The Trinitarian creed describing the godhead is most definitely suspect and lacking harmony with the OT.

This is part of what I am talking about. Where did I say anything different?

[ManOfWord]

When I teach the oneness from the OT beginning with the Jewish view of God, historically, biblically etc, I find very little resistance. In fact, I've even told groups that I would give them the most biblically accurate definition and understanding of the Trinity. They simply accept it, for the most part. Do I care whether they call themselves Trinitarian or not? Of course not. The label means nothing. Oneness means nothing and trinity means nothing. "Splain" to me what you believe and we can have a great conversation. Give me a label and you've prejudiced me. Happens all the time.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

I didn't know I needed footnotes and AP citations to make a claim that is quite obvious. There are some charismatic churches that use people if they aren't even saved, so it wouldn't surprise me that that are some that use people, even if they are a Modalist. But, by and far, fundamentalists, scholars, teachers and prominent leaders within Trinitarian circles see Modalism as a great heresy. It sounds like you've encountered for tolerant people in your studies and ministry. My experience has been opposite, and any Trinitarian's position papers would support that.

Perhaps, as MOW pointed, out it is the attitude with which you come into contact with them that creates such an attitude. I never claimed to work in charismatic churches. Besides I thought, from your position, everyone in a Charismatic church was unsaved?

Again you make an unsubstantiated claim based only on your experience. Take for instance the fact that Western Theological had serious concerns about letting five Oneness professors attend classes. One prof in particular opposed them strongly. When their time there was over another group of students followed from CLC, one a close friend of mine. When he was juggling classes and work the same professor who had so opposed Oneness people in his school, offered his home to help another Oneness student complete his studies. Why? Someone built a bridge.

When I went to Regent, I encountered nothing but kindness and respect from all the professors I came in contact with. One Prof. asked me to explain a Oneness view of the Godhead to him after class we have had a great relationship and he has invited me to sit in on classes he thought I would be interested in even after I had switched over to the school of law. Vinson Synan was the dean of the school of theology he spoke highly of many of prominent men in our movement that he had known for years. One prof. looked me up every time he had contact with other oneness people.

When someone claims to be Oneness and then acts like a jerk to everyone who doesn't believe the way they do that creates a bad name for all of us. I recall reading an account of a young man in Bible College going with his friends and basically taking over an Assembly of God meeting and preaching at them. When Pastor Haney found out he had to go and rebuild relationships and apologize for these students.

Obviously if I am writing a position paper and arguing for my position I am going to try and tear down another view, that is true if I am Oneness writing about other heretical Oneness view as well. But that doesn't mean that we cannot work together, as long as both are willing.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Perhaps, as MOW pointed, out it is the attitude with which you come into contact with them that creates such an attitude. I never claimed to work in charismatic churches. Besides I thought, from your position, everyone in a Charismatic church was unsaved?

Again you make an unsubstantiated claim based only on your experience. Take for instance the fact that Western Theological had serious concerns about letting five Oneness professors attend classes. One prof in particular opposed them strongly. When their time there was over another group of students followed from CLC, one a close friend of mine. When he was juggling classes and work the same professor who had so opposed Oneness people in his school, offered his home to help another Oneness student complete his studies. Why? Someone built a bridge.

When I went to Regent, I encountered nothing but kindness and respect from all the professors I came in contact with. One Prof. asked me to explain a Oneness view of the Godhead to him after class we have had a great relationship and he has invited me to sit in on classes he thought I would be interested in even after I had switched over to the school of law. Vinson Synan was the dean of the school of theology he spoke highly of many of prominent men in our movement that he had known for years. One prof. looked me up every time he had contact with other oneness people.

When someone claims to be Oneness and then acts like a jerk to everyone who doesn't believe the way they do that creates a bad name for all of us. I recall reading an account of a young man in Bible College going with his friends and basically taking over an Assembly of God meeting and preaching at them. When Pastor Haney found out he had to go and rebuild relationships and apologize for these students.

Obviously if I am writing a position paper and arguing for my position I am going to try and tear down another view, that is true if I am Oneness writing about other heretical Oneness view as well. But that doesn't mean that we cannot work together, as long as both are willing.

Usually the average person in church doesn't care about the difference and sees no big deal because you believe JEsus is God. If you where a JW..... it could get ugly. Usually it's seminary students or associate pastors etc... that will give people fits cast them down. It's not just OP preachers etc... Protecting the flock you know. LOL!

[SOUNWORTHY]

I believe those of you who have dropped the standards are more concerned about we who have not dropped the standards than we who have not dropped the standards are concerned about you who have. I feel it's between you and God and that should concern you.

I also feel that the reason you are so concerned is because yoiu feel a little guilt deep down deep in your heart.

I also notice many of you who have dropped the standards have a great dislike for UPC or anyone who has not dropped the standards.