Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

[Sinatra]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

God's concerned about the INSIDE. Because he knows that when the inside is right, the outside will follow. So it seems to me that there should be a lot more preaching about what's inside of us, not outside. In too many places, it's backwards.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Bro. Ron,
The "fuss" was partly TIC , and because of the numerous "standards"
threads lately. Also wanted to create some interest. Did it ever!

Falla39

There is an element of people who want to tear down & mock any sort of standards!

Not you of course!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I believe tongues is an initial, outward sign of being filled with the Holy Ghost, but it isn't the only sign. And quite frankly, if a person speaks in tongues all day long but doesn't exhibit the fruits of the spirit, then I don't think they have the Spirit of God.

The Bible says, "...by THIS shall all men know you are my disciples, that you have love one to another." It doesn't say that people will know we're Spirit filled because of our tongue talking.

It is not and never has been and "if" or an "or" in choosing between identifying ourselves as a spirit-filled tongue talker or a person showing love.

The word "disciple" means a "learner" and a "pupil". That is why the Word says - "I press toward the mark...." Of course He would admonish us to love - love covers a multitude of sin. What does that mean? That love draws a heart. That is how He won us - While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the "ungodly". That is love!

The fruit of the spirit is also an extension and progression in the life of a "spirit-filled" child of God. That is not another sign, they are attributes we should have as "spirit-filled" children of God.

II Peter 1: 4 shows us, also, how to be partakers of His divine nature.

(4)Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (5)And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; (6)And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; (7)And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

That is a Disciple - learning and growing. Paul speaks to Timothy and says, "stir up the gift that is in you". Jude 1:20 "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost..." Stir, build up, pray - grow!

I Corinthians 13 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
...And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
...And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."

I think this passage puts *tongues* in their proper perspective.

Tongues is a sign that follows them that believe--meaning it comes after a person has believed.

Yes, AND baptism AND repentance are also a step taken "after" we believe.

It puts tongues in it's proper perspective toward a "disciple" who is a "pupil" or "learner" . How? The precursor to I Cor 13 is I Cor 12:31, which says, "....and yet show I unto you a more excellent way." Disciple! I will teach you something more!

Let's not overlook, especially, 1 Corinthians 12:11 which also states - "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

There is no OTHER anything - it's the one and the same - selfsame - the Spirit of God Almighty.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I would say these signs are fairly common among many Pentecostal denominations, including those who don't teach the necessity of tongues, but still accept the practice or the sign, with the exception of serpents and drinking deadly things.

If you put total stock in a person who is able to perform a few signs, than you will have to put stock in Pharoah's magicians and even toward the devil himself. God will always respond to faith. That does not mean the person can and will be saved.

"new" tongues means "new, especially in freshness". It is not the same as in Acts 2:4 when it speaks of "other/different" tongues. Although, Vines puts the "new" and "different" having the same meaning. Strong's leaves it as "freshness".

Clearly, one of the signs in Mark 16 would be the "freshness" and renewing of our spirit. I Cor 15:31, "I die daily." That is why, IMO, the writer determines to use "new" tongues, as it means "fresh". It is a renewing and progression as a spirit filled child of God. Even if it took the meaning of "different" from the Vines, it would still support Acts 2:38.

I find NO other spirit, but the selfsame spirit of God - the "seal" - "the promise" - "the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit" poured out on the Day of Pentecost - and they spoke in tongues as the Spirit of God gave the utterance - the selfsame working all in all!

There is only ONE sign. Everything else is an attribute or working of that sign.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Ron

There is an element of people who want to tear down & mock any sort of standards!

Not you of course!

Only the silly ones.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Only the silly ones.

Ahhh, now that is the $64,000 question as to which standards are valid & which are silly!

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Ron

Ahhh, now that is the $64,000 question as to which standards are valid & which are silly!

The Biblical ones are valid, the others are silly.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

The Biblical ones are valid, the others are silly.

I agree! However one can twist scripture to read anything they like cons & libs!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

What if that just means that it is normative for the overall Christian experience collectively but not individually?
.

Speakest thou Englishest?

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It is not and never has been and "if" or an "or" in choosing between identifying ourselves as a spirit-filled tongue talker or a person showing love.

The word "disciple" means a "learner" and a "pupil". That is why the Word says - "I press toward the mark...." Of course He would admonish us to love - love covers a multitude of sin. What does that mean? That love draws a heart. That is how He won us - While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the "ungodly". That is love!

The fruit of the spirit is also an extension and progression in the life of a "spirit-filled" child of God. That is not another sign, they are attributes we should have as "spirit-filled" children of God.

II Peter 1: 4 shows us, also, how to be partakers of His divine nature.

(4)Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (5)And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; (6)And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; (7)And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

That is a Disciple - learning and growing. Paul speaks to Timothy and says, "stir up the gift that is in you". Jude 1:20 "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost..." Stir, build up, pray - grow!



Yes, AND baptism AND repentance are also a step taken "after" we believe.

It puts tongues in it's proper perspective toward a "disciple" who is a "pupil" or "learner" . How? The precursor to I Cor 13 is I Cor 12:31, which says, "....and yet show I unto you a more excellent way." Disciple! I will teach you something more!

Let's not overlook, especially, 1 Corinthians 12:11 which also states - "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

There is no OTHER anything - it's the one and the same - selfsame - the Spirit of God Almighty.



If you put total stock in a person who is able to perform a few signs, than you will have to put stock in Pharoah's magicians and even toward the devil himself. God will always respond to faith. That does not mean the person can and will be saved.

I didn't say anything close to what you're implying. LOL!!! I didn't say that having signs following a believer validated their experience, necessarily. In fact, the whole context of my post said quite the opposite. A sign is just a sign. It isn't the whole of the Christian walk.

Tongues are an initial sign, a prayer language for some, a gift to others for tongues and interpretation, but they are not a litmus test as to who is spirit-filled and who isn't. That was my point.

"new" tongues means "new, especially in freshness". It is not the same as in Acts 2:4 when it speaks of "other/different" tongues. Although, Vines puts the "new" and "different" having the same meaning. Strong's leaves it as "freshness".

You are exactly right. The tongues spoken on the Day of Pentecost were different (presumably from the language of the speaker), but understandable by people around them from other countries. The new tongues(sign following a believer) references a whole new language, presumably understand by God alone.

Clearly, one of the signs in Mark 16 would be the "freshness" and renewing of our spirit. I Cor 15:31, "I die daily." That is why, IMO, the writer determines to use "new" tongues, as it means "fresh". It is a renewing and progression as a spirit filled child of God. Even if it took the meaning of "different" from the Vines, it would still support Acts 2:38.

I think you're reading a lot into the meaning of "new" tongues. All I see in it is that it's a "new" language. A heavenly language, perhaps?

I find NO other spirit, but the selfsame spirit of God - the "seal" - "the promise" - "the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit" poured out on the Day of Pentecost - and they spoke in tongues as the Spirit of God gave the utterance - the selfsame working all in all!

There is only ONE sign. Everything else is an attribute or working of that sign.

You mean there's only one sign of the initial filling of the Spirit, right? But obviously there are signs meant to follow that experience as referenced in Mark, which is where it references the "new" tongues.

And you should correct your last sentence to read that everything else is an attribute or working of that SPIRIT. Our spirituality isn't built upon tongues or seeking after tongues. It's built on seeking after the Spirit of God. If anything, tongues are simply a by-product, or evidence of that work. NOT the work itself.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Speakest thou Englishest?




I didn't say anything close to what you're implying. LOL!!! I didn't say that having signs following a believer validated their experience, necessarily. In fact, the whole context of my post said quite the opposite. A sign is just a sign. It isn't the whole of the Christian walk.

Tongues are an initial sign, a prayer language for some, a gift to others for tongues and interpretation, but they are not a litmus test as to who is spirit-filled and who isn't. That was my point.



You are exactly right. The tongues spoken on the Day of Pentecost were different (presumably from the language of the speaker), but understandable by people around them from other countries. The new tongues(sign following a believer) references a whole new language, presumably understand by God alone.



I think you're reading a lot into the meaning of "new" tongues. All I see in it is that it's a "new" language. A heavenly language, perhaps?



You mean there's only one sign of the initial filling of the Spirit, right? But obviously there are signs meant to follow that experience as referenced in Mark, which is where it references the "new" tongues.

And you should correct your last sentence to read that everything else is an attribute or working of that SPIRIT. Our spirituality isn't built upon tongues or seeking after tongues. It's built on seeking after the Spirit of God. If anything, tongues are simply a by-product, or evidence of that work. NOT the work itself.

Hijacker!!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I didn't say anything close to what you're implying. LOL!!! I didn't say that having signs following a believer validated their experience, necessarily. In fact, the whole context of my post said quite the opposite. A sign is just a sign. It isn't the whole of the Christian walk.

Tongues are an initial sign, a prayer language for some, a gift to others for tongues and interpretation, but they are not a litmus test as to who is spirit-filled and who isn't. That was my point.

When you said:

I believe tongues is an initial, outward sign of being filled with the Holy Ghost, but it isn't the only sign.

I took it to mean that you were in the camp with those that don't believe that speaking in tongues was a sign of receiving the Holy Ghost, that there might be some other sign and I wasn't clear as to what sign you were looking for. Therefore, I thought that you wouldn't think it necessary or salvific.

I see where the disconnect came in. You classify an "attribute" as a "sign" (fruit of the spirit, etc.) and I don't use "sign" outside of the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Prayer language is out the door for me - it's not in the Bible - ever! I never use that terminology. It's "speaking in tongues" not "prayer language". LOL!

I believe you must be filled with God's Spirit to be saved. Romans 8:9 The sign of the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues. To stay saved, you must walk in newness of life. So, to say there are other signs, is a bit misleading. I don't think it's good wording.

You could say that a Christian must also bear fruit as proof that they are a true Christian. I think "sign" is reserved for the initial infilling and can be confusing if used in any other way.

Mainly because the Baptist believe that you are filled when you believe. No sign - like the Bible says. That contradicts God's Word. My BIL described it as feeling "joy". Okay, happy for him, but that's not the Biblical initial sign of receiving God's Spirit.

So, I take issue with using "sign" so loosely.

You are exactly right. The tongues spoken on the Day of Pentecost were different (presumably from the language of the speaker), but understandable by people around them from other countries. The new tongues(sign following a believer) references a whole new language, presumably understand by God alone.

I think you're reading a lot into the meaning of "new" tongues. All I see in it is that it's a "new" language. A heavenly language, perhaps?

Could be reading more into it. Strong's says "freshness", so it speaks as a renewing to me. Although it would probably be stronger to say if these signs followed them that believe - speaking in new tongues - it could be referring to new converts. It could mean speaking in other languages and not the same one when you talk in tongues - the tongues of men and of angels (I Cor 13:1) I don't think Mark 16 reaches to those outside of Acts 2:38, even if people perform some things out of faith. A "Believer" would only include those that obeyed the Gospel message.

There were those that were casting out devils and not following Jesus nor the Disciples. John brought Jesus' attention to that in Luke 9:49-50 and Jesus told John to leave them alone because if they were not against them, they were for them. Apparently, they weren't following all of truth, but not harming the Gospel by what they were doing. Perhaps, Jesus knew they would get to a place where they needed to be more solid to go further in their ministry and needed to find that out for themselves.

I'm not sure why you're trying to prop up Acts 2:38 to me. I'm a firm 3-stepper.

I really wasn't sure where you stood on this thread. As I said, the wording of "sign" threw me off.

You mean there's only one sign of the initial filling of the Spirit, right? But obviously there are signs meant to follow that experience as referenced in Mark, which is where it references the "new" tongues.

I mean that the initial infilling is speaking in tongues as the Spirit of God gives the utterance and we operate that Spirit by His leading. It's not TWO things going on. We are using that one and selfsame spirit in our service to the Kingdom of God - prophecy, healing, taking up serpents, drinking anything deadly, etc.

You are making it sound like, at least that's how I'm reading it, a separation. It's an extension. That's what I'm trying to convey.

And you should correct your last sentence to read that everything else is an attribute or working of that SPIRIT. Our spirituality isn't built upon tongues or seeking after tongues. It's built on seeking after the Spirit of God. If anything, tongues are simply a by-product, or evidence of that work. NOT the work itself.

Okay, I will clarify that. Our spirituality or journey begins when we are drawn by His Spirit to repentance. I still stand by "Everything else is an attribute or working of that sign."

You said the same thing that I did - "Everything else is an attribute or working of that Spirit". That's exactly what I said! That sign is HIS Spirit, I won't change that.

I do agree, for clarification, that our spirituality is not based on tongues alone, because we must continue in the faith. But, there are those that say you do not need the Holy Ghost to be saved and that is NOT true. It is a sign that we have been filled. Whether we talk in tongues "more than ye all" is another discussion. If we have not the Spirit of Christ, we are NONE of His. If we are NONE of His, we cannot be saved.

I heard someone say that the Holy Ghost empowers us, but it's not salvific. I think that is false doctrine and I take issue with that. They went on to say that you could operate in the gifts having sin in your life - I do agree with that - but they also went on to say it showed that the Holy Ghost only empowers and doesn't save. I don't agree with that. If you have knowingly continued to sin and are not willing to repent, you cannot be saved.

Being used in the gifts is not the measure of salvation. But, discounting the need or importance of the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost because of that is taking it too far.

God is merciful and patient, He will continue to forgive. It doesn't mean we will be saved in the end. It will always be a matter of the heart. Of course, I speak of those that live as the foolish virgin - thinking that the oil is available anytime and take it for granted only to find one day - the oil is not available.