Is baptism essential unto salvation?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

baptize first, questions later.

If you think sins are remitted in baptism, then you must not believe they were remitted on the Cross. If you don't believe they were remitted on the Cross you do not have faith in the Good News (Gospel) of the sin remitting work of Christ.

If you do not have faith in the Gospel, then..... ?

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Adino

If you think sins are remitted in baptism, then you must not believe they were remitted on the Cross. If you don't believe they were remitted on the Cross you do not have faith in the Good News (Gospel) of the sin remitting work of Christ.

If you do not have faith in the Gospel, then..... ?

There's simply too much scripture to back away from baptism. Just do it already. And no, I believe in the blood of Jesus and it's full power to forgive sin. So please get off that high horse! I also believe in the process and work of grace, and obedience to scripture.

Sure, let's sit around until He comes debating "when" salvation technically occurs (and I'll join in sometime on those conversations), but let's get over it already and get baptized, preach baptism and do nothing less.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Adino

Stephen, good to hear from you. The charge of universalism was raised earlier. My response is that, although mans sins have been imputed to Christ and removed at Calvary, condemnation is said to come to the unbeliever (John 3:18), the wrath of God abides in the unbeliever (John 3:36), and the world is to be reproved of sin because of unbelief (John 16:8-9). I would go so far as to suggest that the 'sin unto death' spoken of by John is that of unbelief in, or rejection of, Christ and his finished sin remitting work of the Cross.

Though God has forgiven all sins imputed to Christ, all men remained spiritually dead until the heart converts from unbelief to faith. Only those who believe have passed from spiritual death unto spiritual life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40,47; John 11:25,26).

God has set before us the testimony of his Son. I believe man has two choices. He either:

1) Passes into a state of justification and spiritual LIFE by accepting with a heart of faith the record God gave of his Son setting to seal that God is true.... (John 3:33; 1John 5:13)

OR...

2) Man calls God a liar by rejecting the record he gave of his Son and REMAINS SPIRITUALLY DEAD in a state of condemnation. (1John 5:10-12; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 16:8-9)

Thank you Adino. I just realized I have not acknowledged your response.

The sins of all humanity forgiven and remitted on the cross, or only those who are called/chosen?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

There's simply too much scripture to back away from baptism. Just do it already. And no, I believe in the blood of Jesus and it's full power to forgive sin. So please get off that high horse! I also believe in the process and work of grace, and obedience to scripture.

Sure, let's sit around until He comes debating "when" salvation technically occurs (and I'll join in sometime on those conversations), but let's get over it already and get baptized, preach baptism and do nothing less.

Are you implying Adino does not believe in or practice water baptism?

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Are you implying Adino does not believe in or practice water baptism?

Let's stick to what I'm saying, not what I'm implying. No time for rabbit trails tonight.

And what do you mean "believe in water baptism"? I think that's quite vague. It certainly sounds like he sees no connection between the application of grace in a believer's life to baptism.

I say, just baptize and move on... I like good debate and conversation as much as them all, and if that's all that is going on here then forgive me.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Thank you Adino. I just realized I have not acknowledged your response.

The sins of all humanity forgiven and remitted on the cross, or only those who are called/chosen?

He bore the sins of the world. Yet, justification comes only to those who rest in the Good News of the Cross. Though forgiven, mankind is spiritually dead until he receives justification and life at the moment he rests in the historic sin remitting work of the Cross. You might find further clarification in my recent post to delta concerning the idea of 'limited atonement'. I hold that all who are presented with the Gospel have the opportunity to believe.

Btw, I think all believers who have passed into life and have been justified by faith alone in the finished historic sin remission of the Cross should be baptized. I just think their faith should be in the work of the Cross, not in the work of baptism and anyone who thinks sins are remitted in baptism does not have faith they were remitted on the Cross. The doctrine of baptismal remission declares the work of the Cross ineffective.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

There's simply too much scripture to back away from baptism. Just do it already. And no, I believe in the blood of Jesus and it's full power to forgive sin. So please get off that high horse! I also believe in the process and work of grace, and obedience to scripture.

Sure, let's sit around until He comes debating "when" salvation technically occurs (and I'll join in sometime on those conversations), but let's get over it already and get baptized, preach baptism and do nothing less.

Again, if your faith rests in baptism for sin remission, then it does not rest in the finished work of the Cross.

The object of our faith is of utmost importance..... wouldn't you agree?

[Adino]

Does it matter whether we trust our sin remission comes in baptism or whether it was accomplished by Christ on Calvary?

Does it matter whether we accept or reject the idea of an accomplished historic work of sin remission on the Cross?

Does it matter whether we believe the Cross effectively removed those sins imputed to Christ?

I think it does.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Adino

Again, if your faith rests in baptism for sin remission, then it does not rest in the finished work of the Cross.

The object of our faith is of utmost importance..... wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I do agree. My faith is in Christ and His promises.

He's promised certain things through repentance and water baptism, all covenants made available through the atonement. It wasn't enough for him to die, but I must effectuates and provides a sign of our covenant with Him.

Baptism is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one "baptized into" as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus.

Since the covenant with Abraham used circumcision as its sign (Gen 17), did God care about who was circumcised? Can you think of any OT stories where the enemy was referred to as "the uncircumcised?" Do you think it's pretty imporant, this sign he's given us? Circumcision was important enough that Moses' wife circumcised her son, and threw the foreskin at Moses' feet! (Exodus 4). Would the "new circumcision" also be equally important (Col 2)?

Please explain the multitude of scriptures that combine references of sin and baptism. I'm more in the mood to discuss now. And I will ask questions from the other side too Happy Friday.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Yes, I do agree. My faith is in Christ and His promises.

This is good. Now, let's set the paradigm through which we will view the scriptures you mentioned. Do you agree there was a sin remission prior to the resurrection?