Again, point-being, many are afraid to follow their inclinations to change because of the devastation of some of the churches that have taken that step. Maybe in 10 years, these churches will survive. I think churches that decide to change on things should seriously meet with others and talk about the best way to do that.
Good point! As I don't personally know any success stories, I have nothing else to add to your thread.
You could look to the AG as a sort of time machine: what happens to them will probably happen to you guys within a couple of decades. They've been liberalizing steadily over the years. Downside (or another downside, for some!): they're also losing tongues etc. So sad.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Divine indeed! In your experience with others, what would you say, as a percentage, has been the case with churches in this situation.
I would love to hear your story sometime.
Honestly, and sadly, I don't know of many others who have gone through "the change" as seamlessly as we did. The only thing I can attribute our situation to is that we taught love, love, love and we grew steadily and slowly over 18+ years. As we grew, we just naturally outgrew the old ways of thinking. We were careful though (to this day) to always desire the power of God, tongues, demonstrations of the Spirit, etc. We don't ever want to do away with those truths.
I do think that some pastors have tried to change things overnight, because they've been considering some issues for a while and have settled them in their minds, but the people have not been even thinking those thoughts and all of a sudden, everything changes. Change is a scary thing to deal with.
Honestly, and sadly, I don't know of many others who have gone through "the change" as seamlessly as we did. The only thing I can attribute our situation to is that we taught love, love, love and we grew steadily and slowly over 18+ years. As we grew, we just naturally outgrew the old ways of thinking. We were careful though (to this day) to always desire the power of God, tongues, demonstrations of the Spirit, etc. We don't ever want to do away with those truths.
I do think that some pastors have tried to change things overnight, because they've been considering some issues for a while and have settled them in their minds, but the people have not been even thinking those thoughts and all of a sudden, everything changes. Change is a scary thing to deal with.
Such wisdom.
How did churches you fellowshipped handle your "changes?" Your youth? Were you UPC -- and if so, how did that all go down?
You could look to the AG as a sort of time machine: what happens to them will probably happen to you guys within a couple of decades. They've been liberalizing steadily over the years. Downside (or another downside, for some!): they're also losing tongues etc. So sad.
Exactly what most of us don't want -- and what many inside the AOG regret.
You've got to be able to correct, but not to the point of over-correcting. AOG wanted the Evangelical acceptance for a LONG time.
Good point! As I don't personally know any success stories, I have nothing else to add to your thread.
Wow.
That seems to be the case whenever this subject comes up in real-time conversations too. I figured I would throw it out there. Turns out Sherri was the exception?
That seems to be the case whenever this subject comes up in real-time conversations too. I figured I would throw it out there. Turns out Sherri was the exception?
For me, it's following after the will of God wherever that might be. My life and my church are not up for discussion nor evaluation. I believe in Acts 2:38 - totally - as the message of salvation. I've studied each element separately - repentance, baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost (speaking in tongues as the spirit gives the utterance) and don't see it any other way. I wouldn't attend a church that didn't preach that message.
Trouble is, I don't know the churches well enough to tell you exactly what happened. Was it because of standards? I don't know. Standards were dropped. But that may have been the result of rather than the propulsion behind the changes I saw.
The churches that I know personally which failed after standards were dropped.... standards were the least of their problems. Once the curtain fell, there was a LOT of hidden sin revealed. Rampant adultery, fornication, homosexuality, molestation. From the very top on down.
I do personally know of one former UPC church which now considers themselves non-denominational, and no longer have the UPC standards. They are apparently still thriving. Same pastor, same people, plus growth. The pastor basically just stopped enforcing the standards and over 15 years or so it transitioned. I have no information about the state of their hearts, and the true state of the church, I don't attend there. So whether they are truly successful or not is in the hands of God.
GP: my church has made a succesful transition from a "legalistic man made standards" church to one that no longer imposes dress and hair rules upon our people. We also transitioned rom a 3 step to a 1 step church.
We have not taught against tongues in any way but have taught what salvation/converstion/repentance/discipleship looks like in the bible.
Several years ago we taught a series of lesson on "holiness". In three nights of teaching on what bible holiness is there was no mention of our traditonal upc clothing/hair issues.
We did teach our church that we had errored in interpretation of Duet 22:5 and 1 Cor 11
We had open question and answer time on all questions concerning dress and hair issues.
We had one family that did leave and went to a more traditional upc and were sorry to see them go.
Most of our new people don't know anything about the upc as we really don't have any upc close to us that we fellowship with.
Our church has grown both in number and in the spiritual depth in the lives of our members.
It's been about ten years now. I have never regretted for a moment our decision to follow God and his word as we saw it revealed to us.
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God has lavished his love upon me.
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