Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Whoa, step away from the myopic view of standards for 10 seconds and see this applies in such greater measures than these. Surely God speaks to us with more gravity than just what we choose to wear in the morning (though I believe the Holy Spirit will speak to us there too). This applies with the Holy Ghost checking us, confirmed by witnesses, prophetic word, etc... and us refusing to obey God's voice (about where we should go, a situation we are handling in our life, a relationship, etc).

We do a disservice to God to discuss harmartiology within the tiny confinds as "standards."

Additionally, most would argue on this forum the whole point of standards is for God to lead us through the process of how we present ourselves, our bodies -- what we should watch, read, etc... and not necessarily dogmatized law chiseled out that we carry away. That's the whole point. Not for one man to bypass the process of justification by having everyone conform to rules, but have the grace of God working into our lives to bring us to good works and maturity. God still speaks, and he says a whole lot more than reciting the Mosaic Law.

The Ten Commandments are not Mosaic Law. Mosaic Law are the laws Moses set down for Israel by the leading of the Lord. Essentially they are how to apply the Ten Commandments to an ancient society. The Ten Commandments are the Law of God. These embody God's holiness and ultimate desire regarding man's conduct.

My point is that sin can be defined as a violation of God's Law not arbitrary opinions of denominations or individuals. If something is a sin for one... it's a sin for all.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The Ten Commandments are not Mosaic Law. Mosaic Law are the laws Moses set down for Israel by the leading of the Lord. Essentially they are how to apply the Ten Commandments to an ancient society. The Ten Commandments are the Law of God. These embody God's holiness and ultimate desire regarding man's conduct.

My point is that sin can be defined as a violation of God's Law not arbitrary opinions of denominations or individuals. If something is a sin for one... it's a sin for all.

AGREED! That's not how I defined "sin" either.

Regarding Mosaic Law vs. 10 Commandments -- Touche'.

Ultimately, 10 Commandments can be seen as a foundation for many principles that represent God's Holiness. Nothing about this thing is arbitrary, it's all keeping our ears open to "hear what the Spirit says" to the churches.

[GrowingPains]

We got a little off-topic. So judging from another thread, Grace Church of Humble left UPC in 1998, they can be added to this conversation as well. 2 ministers from Michigan have joined staff there. Anyone know the condition of the church they left (I assume Pontiac)? Condition of the youth group?

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

We got a little off-topic. So judging from another thread, Grace Church of Humble left UPC in 1998, they can be added to this conversation as well. 2 ministers from Michigan have joined staff there. Anyone know the condition of the church they left (I assume Pontiac)? Condition of the youth group?

GP, it is very hard to judge from an outside point of view. Even in my own church situation there are those who would say that our situation ended up pretty bad but that is from their perspective. I have seen pastors get on here and talk about how families and churches were destroyed. The truth is that with change there is alway pain but out of that struggle is a great learning and beauty that takes place. From my perspective I see a growing healthy church and folks who are happier and would never go back to the way things were before.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

GP, it is very hard to judge from an outside point of view. Even in my own church situation there are those who would say that our situation ended up pretty bad but that is from their perspective. I have seen pastors get on here and talk about how families and churches were destroyed. The truth is that with change there is alway pain but out of that struggle is a great learning and beauty that takes place. From my perspective I see a growing healthy church and folks who are happier and would never go back to the way things were before.

Perhaps a first-hand account there would be helpful.

[*AQuietPlace*]

GP, you've mentioned 'youth group' a few times. What are your concerns? Do you feel that going more 'liberal' will be detrimental to the youth group? Do you feel that being more conservative helps the youth?

I have very mixed feelings on this. I've seen way too many ultra-conservative youth groups that were very, very, very carnal. Full of fornication and hypocrisy.

I'm concerned about my own children... they are so frustrated by the 'rules' that it seems to put them farther away from God. One of my teen sons in particular seems to feel that God is a frowny God who doesn't want anyone to have any fun. He told me the other day - "I wish you could serve God and be happy, too." THAT bothers me extremely.

I do share your concern that removing a lot of the rules could cause my kids to lose their balance, and maybe go too far the other way. When your foundation has been 'the rules', a new foundation has to be built.

I'm spending a lot of time in prayer about this. I don't know the answers, but in my opinion the legalism has been very damaging to our youth. I can't speak from the other side of the fence since I've not been there.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

GP, you've mentioned 'youth group' a few times. What are your concerns? Do you feel that going more 'liberal' will be detrimental to the youth group? Do you feel that being more conservative helps the youth?

I have very mixed feelings on this. I've seen way too many ultra-conservative youth groups that were very, very, very carnal. Full of fornication and hypocrisy.

I'm concerned about my own children... they are so frustrated by the 'rules' that it seems to put them farther away from God. One of my teen sons in particular seems to feel that God is a frowny God who doesn't want anyone to have any fun. He told me the other day - "I wish you could serve God and be happy, too." THAT bothers me extremely.

I do share your concern that removing a lot of the rules could cause my kids to lose their balance, and maybe go too far the other way. When your foundation has been 'the rules', a new foundation has to be built.

I'm spending a lot of time in prayer about this. I don't know the answers, but in my opinion the legalism has been very damaging to our youth. I can't speak from the other side of the fence since I've not been there.

No, I'm referring to the transition. Many die during this. Many casualties. I think even without the church's "rules", mommy and daddy have a huge role to play with household "standards" that they create as a home, and daddy does as the priest of the home.

It's the transition though that reveals fully the shallowness of what they thought was a deep relationship (not all, but many). They also begin to question everything from the existence in God to the credibility of their own family to have "been wrong this whole time." Their world is topsy-turvy. As a result, I've noticed many youth groups going through this not turn toward holiness, but turn to extreme carnality, flaunting their new liberties like a parade and creating a culture in the church that is not what the decision intended.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

No, I'm referring to the transition. Many die during this. Many casualties. I think even without the church's "rules", mommy and daddy have a huge role to play with household "standards" that they create as a home, and daddy does as the priest of the home.

It's the transition though that reveals fully the shallowness of what they thought was a deep relationship (not all, but many). They also begin to question everything from the existence in God to the credibility of their own family to have "been wrong this whole time." Their world is topsy-turvy. As a result, I've noticed many youth groups going through this not turn toward holiness, but turn to extreme carnality, flaunting their new liberties like a parade and creating a culture in the church that is not what the decision intended.

To me, this is one of the great tragedies of legalism in the first place. It makes for a very shaky foundation.

I'm spending a lot of time right now talking to my kids. Discussing the rules, where they came from, whether they are biblically based, or just man-made. If they were necessary for a certain time period, but are not biblically required. What the Bible requires will never change, but our man-made rules will change. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's necessary to know the difference.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

To me, this is one of the great tragedies of legalism in the first place. It makes for a very shaky foundation.

I'm spending a lot of time right now talking to my kids. Discussing the rules, where they came from, whether they are biblically based, or just man-made. If they were necessary for a certain time period, but are not biblically required. What the Bible requires will never change, but our man-made rules will change. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's necessary to know the difference.

And it's critical daddy/mommy and pastor are on same page, or we imprint on our kid's spirit, of mistrust of leadership. So this is done with a careful scapel. On the same hand, I know many UC youth that have a legitimate walk with God, so these things are not generalities. But you are correct that legalism, or at the least, unbiblical teaching about how we should live, creates a disconnect between the Holy Spirit's work of Justification in the life of the believer and the believer. We agree to the danger in the first place.

But it's now like the young man in The Christmas Story that put his tongue upon a frozen lamppost. To get it off, one can't just pull quickly away, it's quite the process if you want to inflict the least amount of pain.

[*AQuietPlace*]

True. Takes a lot of prayer and carefulness.