It's Sad.

[rgcraig]

AQP - you are preaching today!

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

AQP - you are preaching today!

I'll pass the offering pan here in a few minutes.

[KWSS1976]

I just give ya the shirt off my back....

[Blsdbeyondmsure]

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

That is a good topic. Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

We can focus on clothes and makeup etc and forget the big picture, which is life lived in submission to the will of God, everything needs to yeild to that, whether it is what we do, say, wear, where we go.. all of it and how it impacts others.

We should be asking ourselves what can I do to be better for Jesus when instead we ask "what can I get away with and stay saved"

I like the Philippians 4:8 test

Philippians 4:8 KJVR
(8) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Filtering the Lawful but expedient things through the lens of Ph 4:8 by asking:

1. Is _______ true?
2. Is _______ honest?
3. Is _______ just?
4. Is _______ lovely?
5. Is _______ of good report?
6. Is _______ virtuous?
7. Is _______ praise?

Applying this to not only thoughts but actions.

I am thinking that if we apply this principle to everything from clothing to activity then we will find that we don't need a master list of do's and don'ts to guide us.

And that many of the expedient things that are lawful but not convenient will be shed as we seek to live closer to Jesus.

I don't always succeed at this but I try.

You hit it out of the ballpark! This should be our filter!

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I don't believe anyone has said we don't need rules.

However, rules can never replace relationship.

I think the problem with those who emphasize relationship at the expense of rules, and those who emphasize rules at the expense of relationship, is that both types of unbalance are derived from a naive or flawed concept of human nature.

"The heart is desperately wicked. Who can know it?"

"But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him"

These can both be manifested by the same person, on the same day, in the same hour. We are capable of selfless acts of heroism and giving, and vicious vindictive acts and words calculated to cause the greatest amount of grueling harm to another.

I hear you folks protesting that you aren't practicing a reverse legalism; that you aren't trying to figure out just how much like the world you can live and still be "saved." But you same people repeatedly turn a willfully blind eye to the repeated efforts to show the logical derivation of a few simple relevant rules from scriptural principles. No matter how you stack it, it certainly ends up looking like personal preference.

If you no longer want rules then get out of the ministry, go be a walmart greeter or something, but don't make a mockery of the ministry!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we not now ALL kings and priests? Aren't we all called to minister?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

I hear you folks protesting that you aren't practicing a reverse legalism; that you aren't trying to figure out just how much like the world you can live and still be "saved." But you same people repeatedly turn a willfully blind eye to the repeated efforts to show the logical derivation of a few simple relevant rules from scriptural principles. No matter how you stack it, it certainly ends up looking like personal preference.

Do you have some examples of which scriptural principles you believe are being rejected?

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I am working on a sermon/lesson for the end of this month on the issue of Lawful versus Expedient. It comes down to just this sort of thing. Obviously it isn't a strictly standards lesson. It goes into all areas of our Christian life.

Everyone gets so stuck on asking "am I allowed to ____" instead of asking the right question which is "should I ___" or "is it good for me and those around me if I ____". Everything is lawful for us now that we are in the new covenant. That doesn't mean we should do a whole lot of things that are not good for us. Just because God doesn't say "thou shalt not" doesn't mean we should go about doing it. We ought to have enough judgment, conviction and Holy Ghost to not do some things even if they are genuinely lawful for us.

I may lawfully get away with a good many things that we teach against. That doesn't mean doing those things is expedient or good for me or others. "Is it lawful" is the wrong question.

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

That is a good topic. Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

We can focus on clothes and makeup etc and forget the big picture, which is life lived in submission to the will of God, everything needs to yeild to that, whether it is what we do, say, wear, where we go.. all of it and how it impacts others.

We should be asking ourselves what can I do to be better for Jesus when instead we ask "what can I get away with and stay saved"

I like the Philippians 4:8 test

Philippians 4:8 KJVR
(8) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Filtering the Lawful but expedient things through the lens of Ph 4:8 by asking:

1. Is _______ true?
2. Is _______ honest?
3. Is _______ just?
4. Is _______ lovely?
5. Is _______ of good report?
6. Is _______ virtuous?
7. Is _______ praise?

Applying this to not only thoughts but actions.

I am thinking that if we apply this principle to everything from clothing to activity then we will find that we don't need a master list of do's and don'ts to guide us.

And that many of the expedient things that are lawful but not convenient will be shed as we seek to live closer to Jesus.

I don't always succeed at this but I try.

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

That is exactly my point. I like it!

It is a bit corny, but I am reminded of the speech Jeff Golblum gave in Jurassic Park. When they are discussing hte re-creation of the dinosaurs and the possible dangers, he says the doctors were so busy asking themselves "can we do it" that no one took the time to ask whether they should do it.

This generation of "enlightened" individuals due to the internet age is great at asking "can I", but they stink at asking the more important question of "should I".

Can I drink beer bibliacally? The better question is should you. Can I throw out distinction in dress? The better question is should you. Do I have to pay tithes? The better question is should you financially support your church. Can I watch TV? The better question is should you flood your home with all the trash on it. ( I do have a TV btw, but am pretty careful about what is watched) Can I have church at home since I just don't really like any churches? The better question is what gives you the right to forsake the assembly.

Everyone is stuck on the immature questions like my 3 year old step son asks: "can I". They refuse to ask the more grown up question: "should I" or "is this good for me".

These are excellent posts.

[EA]

I think the concerns about excessive liberality and worldliness are absolutely 100% spot on.

There seems to be no middle ground nowadays. Maybe it's just that the moderate Pentecostals are not being heard because of the screaming and shouting coming from the extreme fringes of the movement.

I think we are dealing with a strong spirit of worldliness. But I do not believe it is confined to some of the pet issues at which we love to hack.

There is a problem with unfaithfulness, with affection direction with self-pleasure and an overall apathy - and this is in the church.

I long for the days of real Pentecostal hunger and zeal. When nothing else mattered but the presence and power of God.

“And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

Pentecost demands our complete attention. There is no room for worldliness.

Imagine the logistics involved in getting everybody into one place.

The followers of Jesus were so hungry for a spiritual outpouring that they set everything else aside to receive it. They got to a point where nothing else in life mattered but receiving the PROMISE of God. They set aside jobs, food, activities and all of their previous commitments in order to receive the power of Pentecost.

If we are to have an outpouring of the Holy Ghost, we will need to give up our worldliness. We will need to make Jesus the object of our affection.

I believe Pentecost is disruptive, and Pentecostal power demands…

• your time
• your money
• your appetite

So, we can talk about "our look" all day long but worldliness goes much deeper than that. It's about affections, desires and the consequences of such things.

[EA]

That "waiting" for the promise cost them something.

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Sigh,

For some people, fat meat isnt greasy.

Lev 10:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Lev 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; Lev 10:11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.


If you no longer want rules then get out of the ministry, go be a walmart greeter or something, but don't make a mockery of the ministry!

and yet a little fat in the meat gives the meat so much more flavor.

Sounds to me like Aaron and his sons were not to be drinking before ministering but doesn't sound like they were not allowed to drink at all

they were to live an example before the people and in that example they would be living according to what GOD said was clean or unclean and what GOD said was holy or unholy.

The problem I have seen in many places it that the preacher decides what is clean or unclean and what is holy or unholy.

Rules are not bad to have so that things are done decently and in order but rules are not made to live according to what one person or group of persons decides is good and bad, right or wrong.

But then those who want strict rule and order will never want to see that freedom of choice and ability to have a relationship with God on your own level and your own terms as being okay because they are usually not stable enough or have the discipline that is needed to live for God without all the rules being enforced.

JMHO