Winterfire 2010

[Will McLeod]

I'm curious how one can call another a brother, "IF" they do not share a common faith?
According to the BIBLE (which is the ONLY oppinion that matters), one can NOT be a LIAR and make Heaven their home.

That being said....SOMEONE is promoting a LIE. Either there is ONE GOD and Jesus is that same GOD...or....There are 3 "persons" in the GOD Head, being Father, Son and Holy Ghost (or Spirit...some may be offended). All three being distinct.

Somebody IS NOT going to make Heaven their home. BOB should pick WISELY!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

So three basic questions:

1) Do you know FOR SURE that your Godhead doctrine is correct?

Yes

2) Do you know FOR SURE that the trinitarian Godhead doctrine is incorrect? (knowing for sure that it is, would require you knowing for sure that yours IS correct, it seems)

Yes, I'm sure.

3) If you are unable to answer the first two questions in the affirmative, then can anyone know and if not, what's the point of obsessing over these uncertain doctrines?

Because truth is important and precious.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

Naaaaa, I'm still confused. I don't understand how a person could have crossed doctrinal lines and still be a "Devout Christian." I'm attempting to reconcile those two statement and thus far, I've been unsuccessful. Can you help me understand?

They are a devout Christian not because of whether they believe trinity or oneness, but because of their focus on living according to Jesus' teachings. They may even disagree with you on what some of those teachings mean, but the important part is their focus on what they believe to be his teachings.

How many times have you changed your beliefs Christian doctrine? Did your beliefs determine your sincerity toward God and Jesus? I'm willing to bet that every time you changed your beliefs that you didn't look back and say, "Oh how ungodly I was to have believed such a thing".

The real question you should be asking is not how do other men accept those with doctrinal differences, but instead does God accept others with doctrinal differences? Once you have learned whether God accepts such people or not, then you will know whether you ought to.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

PO, I hope that is what God leads JA to preach at Winterfire tonight.

This part sounds alot like my pastor, "If I could give you any kind of gift, I would ask God to make all of us so desperately hungry for His presence. Not for His stuff, for Him."

Another excerpt that I really like from JA's book:

"See, real holiness is not hair piled high and a dress adhesive-taped to your ankles. Real holiness is a life that is full of light, having no dark part. See, I can't claim that, I got too many blotches and blemishes, but I am opening my spirit every day to God that He may deal with the weak areas of my life and bring me into conformity to His image. Yes, I wouldn't mind being a great Pentecostal. I'd much rather be a great Christian. I'd much rather be a person that's conformed to the image of God. I'd much rather have God just keep putting light on inside of my spirit, so that my outer action would match my inner anointing. As God finishes me, I want to be more like Him than when I first started."

Good to see you posting again, Mizpeh! You have been missed!!!!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

So I guess my point is, if you don't know FOR SURE whether or not you're absolutely correct and the trinitarian is absolutely incorrect, then why bother discussing the issue at all? And I agree....when Walter Martin asked the simple question, "Am I your brother?" and NA Urshan choked on the question and couldn't, or the life of him, figure out how to answer the question, he certainly did not appear to be a scholar.

Do you really expect Bob, who doesn't even know where the book of Acts is in the bible, to figure out the godhead BEFORE he goes to church, when we, who have been going to church all our life, STILL haven't figured it out? You're saying that going to church and THEN researching the bible is backwards?

I'm saying that if people would try to figure God out before they try to figure out religion, we'd be a lot better off.

So three basic questions:

1) Do you know FOR SURE that your Godhead doctrine is correct?

I know for sure that the things I'm sure about are correct.

2) Do you know FOR SURE that the trinitarian Godhead doctrine is incorrect? (knowing for sure that it is, would require you knowing for sure that yours IS correct, it seems)

It is [incorrect] as most explain it, although there are a few that have explanations similar to ours, and it falls into semantics. (Especially among those who are largely ignorant of the creed and dogma, and don't make attempts to defend it.)

3) If you are unable to answer the first two questions in the affirmative, then can anyone know and if not, what's the point of obsessing over these uncertain doctrines?

I can answer in the affirmative, and I STILL don't see why that means I can't respect other believers as Christians.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Will McLeod

I'm curious how one can call another a brother, "IF" they do not share a common faith?
According to the BIBLE (which is the ONLY oppinion that matters), one can NOT be a LIAR and make Heaven their home.

That being said....SOMEONE is promoting a LIE. Either there is ONE GOD and Jesus is that same GOD...or....There are 3 "persons" in the GOD Head, being Father, Son and Holy Ghost (or Spirit...some may be offended). All three being distinct.

Somebody IS NOT going to make Heaven their home. BOB should pick WISELY!

One conundrum that was faced over the centuries was that the word "person" (persona) has evolved over time. When the word was coined into Latin by Tertullian he was using an old Etruscan word for the theater mask.

"Per" means "to go forth from" and "Sona" is still our root word for "sound" and "sonic." It referred to the "voice" of the actor that was being transmitted through the mask's aperture. The mask was where the "sound" (sona) went forth from (per). One actor often assumed all of the roles in an ancient play, they switched masks (or persona) to indicate the change in role.

So, by the time this word was "written in stone" as the "required" understanding for the nature of God - it had already begun to mutate as human languages continually evolved. It took on the meaning of an individual's "face."

At one time a "Oneness" believer could have embraced the concept of "Persons" easily. In time, as the language changed however it took on an increasingly tri-theistic connotation.

But, the Trinitarian (perhaps now a conceptual tri-theist in all but name) could say that "This is what the church has always said...!" and still be technically correct, at least in Latin.

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by Will McLeod

I'm curious how one can call another a brother, "IF" they do not share a common faith?
According to the BIBLE (which is the ONLY oppinion that matters), one can NOT be a LIAR and make Heaven their home.

That being said....SOMEONE is promoting a LIE. Either there is ONE GOD and Jesus is that same GOD...or....There are 3 "persons" in the GOD Head, being Father, Son and Holy Ghost (or Spirit...some may be offended). All three being distinct.

Somebody IS NOT going to make Heaven their home. BOB should pick WISELY!

Poor Bob. So are you saying that if he heads of in the direction of the AG church, has a Holy Ghost hoe-down, speaks in tongues 'til he forgets English, and turns his life around, that it was all for naught? How is Bob supposed to know the difference? Is that really how you view God? If that's your God, I think I'll try to find a different one.

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I'm saying that if people would try to figure God out before they try to figure out religion, we'd be a lot better off.

I know for sure that the things I'm sure about are correct.

It is [incorrect] as most explain it, although there are a few that have explanations similar to ours, and it falls into semantics. (Especially among those who are largely ignorant of the creed and dogma, and don't make attempts to defend it.)

I can answer in the affirmative, and I STILL don't see why that means I can't respect other believers as Christians.

Are you saying that someone should "figure out God" BEFORE they go to church? "Bob" is supposed to master theology BEFORE he attends somewhere? A lot of you have been fighting over these principles for decades and you still can't figure it out. How's Bob supposed to master what you all still can't all make up your mind about?

I'm unable to understand how you can view "other believers as Christians" when they don't agree with your doctrine. If they're "Christians" then what's the purpose of the doctrine you fight so hard to defend and protect? Isn't this "One-God, holiness" message important? If your old principal was a "devout Christian" even though he didn't practice your creeds, dogmas, and doctrines, maybe the creeds, dogmas, and doctrines aren't really that important.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Will McLeod

I'm curious how one can call another a brother, "IF" they do not share a common faith?
According to the BIBLE (which is the ONLY oppinion that matters), one can NOT be a LIAR and make Heaven their home.

Ananias called Saul "Brother Saul" before Saul was baptized or received the Holy Ghost. Was he lying?

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

Are you saying that someone should "figure out God" BEFORE they go to church? "Bob" is supposed to master theology BEFORE he attends somewhere? A lot of you have been fighting over these principles for decades and you still can't figure it out. How's Bob supposed to master what you all still can't all make up your mind about?

Every person's experience should start with a pursuit of God--not a pursuit of religion. And if and when they do go to church, that pursuit should be encouraged and enhanced by what is taught and practiced there--not laid down in exchange for the church teachings.

I'm unable to understand how you can view "other believers as Christians" when they don't agree with your doctrine. If they're "Christians" then what's the purpose of the doctrine you fight so hard to defend and protect? Isn't this "One-God, holiness" message important? If your old principal was a "devout Christian" even though he didn't practice your creeds, dogmas, and doctrines, maybe the creeds, dogmas, and doctrines aren't really that important.

I've answered your questions as clearly as I know how, and there aren't any more answers to be had.

I consider anyone who has devoted their life to following the teachings of Christ to be a devout Christian. The truths found in God's Word are the most important ones anyone will ever discover. I don't see how those two statements are contradictory. Sorry to disappoint!