The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save - Page 18

TheLegalist · #**171** 03-31-2010, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

hahahaha

mfblume · #**172** 03-31-2010, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Please show me where scripture baptism and speaking in tongues are required for salvation?

Blume, how was Abraham saved? Moses? Noah? Hint: Paul talks about this in Romans.

It's not a matter of whether tongues are necessary for salvation, but whether or not tongues accompanies Spirit baptism and if Spirit Baptism is necessary for salvation or not. If I want a pizza, it is not the smell I want but the smell indicates I have the pizza!

pelathais · #**173** 03-31-2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

is circumcision of any value?

That actually goes right to the whole "one stepper" point.

Abraham was "justified" and "accounted righteous" before he was circumcised. Romans 4:1-5; Genesis 15:6 and then later... Genesis 17.

Circumcision, the seal of the covenant and without which no man could have a place in the congregation of the faithful, was given as a sign after Abraham was "saved" in the eyes of God.

He of course went ahead and was circumcised; but he was "righteous" and "justified" long before he did that "work."

It might even be argued that Abraham was commanded to be circumcised, not because there was some sort of heavenly requirement for it - but because of the events that happened between Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 17: the matter involving Hagar the Egyptian handmaid.

Abraham's faith in God's promises for a child wavered, so he took up Sarah's offer of her handmaid. (Here we can almost see a parallel between these events and the events in the garden when Eve offered "the fruit" to Adam).

In the Garden, a flaming sword was set up to guard the way to the "forbidden fruit" and the Tree of Life. In Abraham's tent, a knife was used to "guard the way" to the fruit of Abraham's loins and "forbidden flesh."

But back to the theme of this thread; Abraham was justified in the eyes of God by his faith alone - even though that faith would waver, God still honored it and kept Abraham on the path toward the promise.

KWSS1976 · #**174** 03-31-2010, 12:54 PM

Well mf it's not totally clear tongues acompanies spirit baptism we have a few cases that it did happen but then again we have cases were it happened and not tongues were present...so pick your poison I guess...

mfblume · #**175** 03-31-2010, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Then argue with Paul

That implies you propose a circular argument. Paul preached what you believe so you believe what Paul preached. Prove it.

Do you believe we have to repent or not?

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Fortunately, this attitude about salvation represents only about 20% of Pentecostalism globally.

I could care less about attitudes. I want to preach what the bible preaches. Let's talk bible.

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All the concern about "greasy gracers" not being baptized, none experiencing the Spirit and living godly lives can be put to rest. Their personal witness is almost as potent as the biblical theology. It has caused many a 3-stepper to wonder.

Repentance is not the prerequisite. Let's let Paul speak for himself here. The Spirit draws, Christ is revealed, faith (at the heart level) is expressed -- regeneration has happened, justification has happened... in response, and ONLY as a sign (same as it was with circumcision - again read Paul's words in Rom 4-5) we are baptized signifying the death and new life in following our Rabbi Jesus. The Spirit baptism (Promise of the Father) is promised, and is therefore available and accessible to all believers. But make no mistake, all believers, upon faith have the indwelled presence of God.

We seek to compartmentalize it all, but the plan of salvation has never changed since the beginning, it is BY FAITH. That's what God accounts/reckons as righteousness. He loved us while we were still sinners. The response to be baptized is because one already trusts God. If not, they are just getting wet anyway. And to the Jew, they are just getting trimmed! That's not your salvation! Paul was emphatic about this. This is the fault of the Jews as well! Always looking for a sign so they could control it all. Wanting to take the credit. "I got baptized, I repented" as if that merited salvation.

So do you believe repentance is necessary? A simple yes or no will do. Then we can go from there.

TheLegalist · #**176** 03-31-2010, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

That actually goes right to the whole "one stepper" point.

Abraham was "justified" and "accounted righteous" before he was circumcised. Romans 4:1-5; Genesis 15:6 and then later... Genesis 17.

Circumcision, the seal of the covenant and without which no man could have a place in the congregation of the faithful, was given as a sign after Abraham was "saved" in the eyes of God.

He of course went ahead and was circumcised; but he was "righteous" and "justified" long before he did that "work."

It might even be argued that Abraham was commanded to be circumcised, not because there was some sort of heavenly requirement for it - but because of the events that happened between Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 17: the matter involving Hagar the Egyptian handmaid.

Abraham's faith in God's promises for a child wavered, so he took up Sarah's offer of her handmaid. (Here we can almost see a parallel between these events and the events in the garden when Eve offered "the fruit" to Adam).

In the Garden, a flaming sword was set up to guard the way to the "forbidden fruit" and the Tree of Life. In Abraham's tent, a knife was used to "guard the way" to the fruit of Abraham's loins and "forbidden flesh."

But back to the theme of this thread, Abraham was justified in the eyes of God by his faith alone - even though that faith would waver, God still honored it and kept Abraham on the path toward the promise.

simple answer yes or no..... thanks! I was not making a statement but wanting a response TO respond.

mfblume · #**177** 03-31-2010, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Well mf it's not totally clear tongues acompanies spirit baptism we have a few cases that it did happen but then again we have cases were it happened and not tongues were present...so pick your poison I guess...

The ONLY passage that ever deals with the question either way, in any way shape or form, is Acts 10 where Spirit Baptism was recognized by speaking in tongues. Nothing else touches the issue. So... go figure.

KWSS1976 · #**178** 03-31-2010, 12:57 PM

Well we do have people that were filled with the holyghost in the bible and did not speak in tongues so I was just saying...

pelathais · #**179** 03-31-2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

That implies you propose a circular argument. Paul preached what you believe so you believe what Paul preached. Prove it.

Do you believe we have to repent or not?

...

What do you mean by "repent" here? I haven't seen Jeffery telling people, "Don't repent! You're already saved without it!"

mfblume · #**180** 03-31-2010, 12:59 PM

Luk 13:1-5 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. (2) And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? (3) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (4) Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? (5) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.