The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Man I don't get any of this now. Berk and Jeff... maybe there is some sarcasm or something.

Guess I should not just pop in and respond like I did.

Let me just say I find it troubling that some "believe they are seeking Jesus, but they also know the climax is tongues" . BUT, I do believe that is a fairly common mindset.

Though I have spoken in tongues I cannot really identify with that.

Hoovie,
I don't think there is sarcasm. I feel that there is pain underneath the post. I don't know Jeff from Adam. It's just a hunch, if you will.

And, I agree. It is a fairly common mindset.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Memo to self: Refrain from other "non-biblical" words that help us communicate theology like soteriology, eschatology, missiology, pericopes, hermeneutics... let's just quote scripture. LOL Boy, those words really rubbed you in a funny way.

LOL!

I looked at this again. Another website explained it in more detail. Basically, they are calling "sanctification" the "crises experiment" which was taught by John Wesley. He taught that you needed a deeper surrender and deeper consecration after you were saved in order to become spirit filled. I suppose he is just trying to explain what sanctification means to him.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

He said "it's true".

Silent Chick,

Jeffrey said that it is true. Hoover was saying that it being true was the least disturbing element to Jeff's post.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Thanks, did you see my responses to what Mike had said? Any thoughts?

His whole attempt at wrestling with "works" is really a non sequitur in this discussion. I know that it is common to see it come up, however when we are considering "One Stepper" versus "Three Stepper" theology we have to keep in mind that none of those men were Calvinists.

Repentance is not a "work" in Pauline theology and neither is baptism. When Paul decries those who are advocating "works" he is talking about the "Works of the Law." Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was never considered a part of the "works of the Law," nor any other type of baptism for that matter.

Repentance and baptism are two different things and they accomplish different things - though they are obviously both going to related close to one another in time and in the experience of the convert to Christianity. Neither are "works" however until when a Calvinist comes into the room. "One Steppers" were never Calvinists and didn't really show any Calvinistic influences until rather recently after being push out by their "Three Stepper" brethren.

Pel,
I think Paul says that repentance is a work. Therefore, baptism must also be a work.

Paul tells King Agrippa, "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet (deserving/suitable) for repentance." (Acts 26:20)

If John, the forerunner, was preaching the "baptism of repentance", then Paul was preaching it also, except that Paul would have included the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I believe as MB put it - "And Spirit infilling with tongues is where we also do something. But we speak as the Spirit gives utterance. It is cooperation in all cases! The Spirit does not simply come on us without any mental assent required for anything."

James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

I think that you have to, also, consciously repent (think differently). That is a work (deed) and something we are engaged in. I think that if you are morally feeling compunction (sense of guilt), you are going to have your mental faculties involved. Therefore, it is a work. There are no free passes into the Kingdom.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Pel,
I think Paul says that repentance is a work. Therefore, baptism must also be a work.

Paul tells King Agrippa, "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet (deserving/suitable) for repentance." (Acts 26:20)

If John, the forerunner, was preaching the "baptism of repentance", then Paul was preaching it also, except that Paul would have included the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I believe as MB put it - "And Spirit infilling with tongues is where we also do something. But we speak as the Spirit gives utterance. It is cooperation in all cases! The Spirit does not simply come on us without any mental assent required for anything."

James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

I don't see that it's saying repentance IS a work. "they should repent and turn to God" AND "do works meet for repentance."

The good works are caused by repentance, therefore they are in agreement with the nature of true repentance. The NKJ says "befitting" of repentance.

Also, James is saying true faith brings forth good works in a believer. A little different that saying good works creates belief or faith...

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Berkley

Hoovie,
I don't think there is sarcasm. I feel that there is pain underneath the post. I don't know Jeff from Adam. It's just a hunch, if you will.

And, I agree. It is a fairly common mindset.

I don't know Hoovie from Jeffrey - but I would imagine that there is some painful experiences related to all of this that we all share.

I know that for myself, it was pretty easy to "push my buttons" when I first came in for therapy. I try to be more mellow now, but still...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I don't see that it's saying repentance IS a work. "they should repent and turn to God" AND "do works meet for repentance."

The good works are caused by repentance, therefore they are in agreement with the nature of true repentance. The NKJ says "befitting" of repentance.

Yes, I agree with that. "...and also among the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works and live lives consistent with and worthy of their repentance."

I think that you have to, also, consciously repent (think differently). That is a work (deed) and something we are engaged in. I think that if you are morally feeling compunction (sense of guilt), you are going to have your mental faculties involved. Therefore, it is a work. There are no free passes into the Kingdom.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Berkley

Maybe that's why people don't get "it." (I hate that terminology) They were seeking tongues. When I was 14 yrs old I began to seek after tongues and nothing happened. I did not attend or even know what an Apostolic church was. When I visited a UPC (9/17/97) my focus changed from seeking tongues to asking for the Holy Spirit. I was a low down dirty sinner at the age of 15. All I did was weep for three church services. On the evening of the third service I stopped weeping. I began to worship Jesus and I asked Him for the Holy Spirit. He answered the prayer.

Ahhh....Now we know!!! You are YOUNG!

Give it time, Tonto. A very wise man told me once, "Time is the greatest revelator".

The shenanigans only get better, and your eyes will open about Religion IF you are honest and don't let Tradition strangle the life out of you!

Nothing can replace experience, and I'm glad you're on this Forum with your fiesty ideas that will end up in "Crow Pie".

I'm eating plenty of that Pie myself.............

BTW, what did you think the Video I posted? Just a little emotional hysteria, don't ya think?

Here it is for those who missed it...............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2CezWts6oU

[jfrog]

The music on that video is funny.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The music on that video is funny.

I like the guy who runs down the main aisle, with arms flying!!