The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The shadow of baptism is anything in the Old Testament that was required by God in all their sacrifices that proposed the concept of vicarious sacrifice, for example.



Baptism was never said to be regenerative work. This is where you are not listening to us. It is obedience to the covenant, and it MOVES God to regenerate and save. Baptism is not regeneration.

Ah... okay. So you DON'T believe in baptismal regeneration? I think TL does.
But thanks for clearing that up.

This is a faith covenant. Baptism is part of our participation, but it is not a pre-requisite. All we have to do is accept it by faith. That's it. So hard for folks...

We don't PROVOKE God to decide to save us because we've done something. He is offering to save us. He is already MOVED to save us! Your last sentence is exactly what baptismal regeneration is all about!

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

That's ALL justification is??? Really???? Your RESPONSE? Your heart response?

Your heifers and turtle doves all come AFTER Abraham's faith was accounted to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS, not BEFORE.

ARE YOU SERIOUS! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! He was considered RIGHTEOUS before Gen 15:6 ALSO by his response! BIG DEAL! The points is God judges EACH ACTION "just" or "unjust" Just as God judged Gen 12 and Abraham doing. He alsos judged his response to bring what God told him to make covenant.

You ingore the CLEAR POINTS outlined! You do this all the time. TO ENTER.... GET THIS ...............TO ENTER covenant God asked him "TO DO" God made covenant by these offerings for the Land. Your points on "justificaton" are simply ignorant of the facts of what the whole deals with. You don't care about truth but ignore it for your own doctrine. Justification is simply God doing his justice toward our actions. That's it!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Ah... okay. So you DON'T believe in baptismal regeneration? I think TL does.

I see no one here who believes in baptismal regeneration. In fact, I think you do not understand what baptismal regeneration is. It is the belief that baptism need require NO FAITH and is done so that the simple act in and of itself regenerates us. Hence, infant baptism.

But thanks for clearing that up.

This is a faith covenant. Baptism is part of our participation, but it is not a pre-requisite. All we have to do is accept it by faith. That's it. So hard for folks...

It is indeed a prerequisite. Jesus said belief and baptism come before salvation.

We don't PROVOKE God to decide to save us because we've done something.

Strawman. He already decided to save us.

He is offering to save us. He is already MOVED to save us! Your last sentence is exactly what baptismal regeneration is all about!

You do not evidently know what baptismal regeneration is.

God already moved to save us and we must move towards that salvation that is already laying there before us. God made the meal, but we have to walk up to it to eat it. And that is exactly what you claim faith alone does, and yet you are not seeing that faith is a step as much as baptism, and that it is also faith THAT works, and not just faith.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You know quite well there is faith that does not work. And that faith does not save.

I only know faith. Faith that is alive, and faith that dies. Faith that dies slowly resorts back to sin and death, and the underlying issue is disbelief.

Reject Peter all you wish, but he said what he said.
I've not rejected Peter. I think Peter and I would get along fine. I think you'd make Luke's account of Peter's sermon something it was not: namely a systematic theology of how we are saved.

Nothing was redeveloped. The true picture is that God all along planned for all mankind to be saved. And Israelite exclusivity was preparatory for that, not vice versa as though Israelite exclusivity was redeveloped.

Let me clarify. When I say "redeveloped" I'm speaking in Pauline terms. For him, as a Jew, it certainly was. They never saw themselves sharing the election of God with Gentiles. Yes, it was God's original plan, and yes, they missed the boat.


We added nothing! You remove from it. Jesus, not me, said repentance and remission of sins must be preached in His name for people to obey. And Acts 2:38 lays it all out. Why do you refuse to deal with the corresponding nature of Luke 24:47-49 and Acts 2:38?

Refuse to deal with it? Huh?
Repentance and forgiveness of sins comes by way of Jesus and the authority he has because of the resurrection. I'll give it to you since Acts 2 and Luke 24 are the same writers, that one could certainly entertain your logic. But that's precisely where I go with it to. I read Acts 2:38 through Luke 24, and don't come out of it with baptismal regeneration. I come out of it salvation by way of and authority of Jesus.

Words must mean nothing.

Right, they don't.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Ah... okay. So you DON'T believe in baptismal regeneration? I think TL does.
But thanks for clearing that up.

oh of course.... seriously it's pointless to even discuss this as you simply either are to ingorant to understand or prideful to listen to what is said. to say i believe in baptism regeneration is a TOTAL IGNORE of everything I have said. THat or you don't know what baptism regeneration is.

This is a faith covenant. Baptism is part of our participation, but it is not a pre-requisite. All we have to do is accept it by faith. That's it. So hard for folks...

We don't PROVOKE God to decide to save us because we've done something. He is offering to save us. He is already MOVED to save us! Your last sentence is exactly what baptismal regeneration is all about!

oh yes WE provoke God with his own appointed time and will and word. ROFL! I am done for the day as this is getting insane.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

ARE YOU SERIOUS! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! He was considered RIGHTEOUS before Gen 15:6 ALSO by his response! BIG DEAL! The points is God judges EACH ACTION "just" or "unjust" Just as God judged Gen 12 and Abraham doing. He alsos judged his response to bring what God told him to make covenant.

You ingore the CLEAR POINTS outlined! You do this all the time. TO ENTER.... GET THIS ...............TO ENTER covenant God asked him "TO DO" God made covenant by these offerings for the Land. Your points on "justificaton" are simply ignorant of the facts of what the whole deals with. You don't care about truth but ignore it for your own doctrine. Justification is simply God doing his justice toward our actions. That's it!

Wow, so justification is by EACH ACTION now? You amaze me, TL. I know you are smarter than this. I've read your words before.

God didn't judge Abram's ACTION he reckoned and accounted to him righteousness because of his faith. Quit changing terminology.

Your minimizing of justification by faith would cause Paul to have a heart attack and write you a very colorful letter. And of course, Martin Luther would roll over in his grave.

Justification, to you, is all something we deserve for being good. Amazing.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

oh of course.... seriously it's pointless to even discuss this as you simply either are to ingorant to understand or prideful to listen to what is said. to say i believe in baptism regeneration is a TOTAL IGNORE of everything I have said. THat or you don't know what baptism regeneration is.



oh yes WE provoke God with his own appointed time and will and word. ROFL! I am done for the day as this is getting insane.

Sheesh, you insists on personal attacks. Funny guy you are.

Prideful? Blind? Retarded? Ignorant? Yup, that's me because I agree with the masses of scholars on this issue over TL.

Thanks for the demeaning pep talk.

I was sort of enjoying our discussion. You're too smart for it though. So, I'll go ahead and check out for the day.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

ha. Get off the "your reformed theologians."

Gen 22 reinforces what was told to Abram in Gen 12. What is unique here that you are jumping up and down about?

Interestingly, this event also as Messianic overtones as well. But that's a TRUE tangent.

LOL... seriously the problem is with you is you miss the little very important points that bring about the big picture. I have attempted to show you the points and you ignore the most simple things.

I will repeat...

Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

"I WILL" "I WILL" THIS IS COVENANT LANGUAGE! The covenant is made AT THIS POINT! WHY? because you have obeyed my voice!

The covenant was not made UNTIL Gen 22 concerning his offspring.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Sheesh, you insists on personal attacks. Funny guy you are.

Prideful? Blind? Retarded? Ignorant? Yup, that's me because I agree with the masses of scholars on this issue over TL.

Thanks for the demeaning pep talk.

I was sort of enjoying our discussion. You're too smart for it though. So, I'll go ahead and check out for the day.

well I am having to wonder seriously... Whether you don't agree that is one thing but you TOTALY ignore what is said TOTALY and then call me a BAPTISM REGENERATION believer. Seriously you IGNORE what is said! How in the WORLD you can say this is beyond my imagination. Anyone who would do that is ignorant of the issue OR simpy likes to flame accusations and lump people. Probably true since several of you lump works so why not baptism to. Why you do such I have no idea. After a while it get pointless.

What scholars? That is hilarious! REFORMED SCHOLARS? CATHOLIC? NAZARENE? PENTECOSTAL? LUTHERAN? You do realize that most likely don't agree with each other on a lot of things. Many will agree with my point in Gen 15 and 22 and 12 etc...

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

LOL... seriously the problem is with you is you miss the little very important points that bring about the big picture. I have attempted to show you the points and you ignore the most simple things.

I will repeat...

Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

"I WILL" "I WILL" THIS IS COVENANT LANGUAGE! The covenant is made AT THIS POINT! WHY? because you have obeyed my voice!

The covenant was not made UNTIL Gen 22 concerning his offspring.

TL, though you are zoning in on "BECAUSE YOU OBEYED" more consistent with the Story is that Abraham had faith, and in this act, still trusted God in faith. His faith was not new in Gen 22, it began in Gen 12 when he radically left all he knew to a city he didn't know concerning details he didn't have.

Also, offspring is certainly a part of Gen 12:
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Why wouldn't it be? God made a pact with Abram from the get-go. He chose him, asked for his trust, told him where to go and Abram was on a journey ever since. Beautiful story.