The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

So am I to understand, from this statement, that you believe works could help us obtain righteousness, but works don't make us righteous? I'm still a little stuck on your claim that you were able to speak in tongues (a necessary element of salvation according to you) because you "let go of sin."

see you almost are close... Our actions are either righteous/just or not. God judges/considers them as in Gen 15:6. He is the one that declares righteous which is a legal position of actions judged. When it comes to sins. God's justice declares the penalty to be satisfied or debt to be paid. It is not a acquittal. Gen 15:6 is not dealing with sin it is simply about justice done. which is a very clear aspect of how God deals with man.

Judgment & Justification In Early Judaism And The Apostle Paul by Chris VanLandingham

is a excellent and probably one of the most thorough books on this subject concerning this dealing with OT writings and New Testament era.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

You use the word "judged" more than anyone I know.

"It" = "his faith" = "his believing the Lord" the precedent clause of Gen 15:6.

correct his "faith' is judged. The reason I use judge all the time because that is what happens. Everything we do has judgment or a "reactive result" Breathing air has a judgment on the body. Our actions have judgment before God and law is always there. back to the subject...

1) Gen 15:6 is not about sin
2) Gen 15:6 is not directly about salvation
3) Gen 15:6 IS ABOUT God doing justice to Abrahams action.
4) Gen 15:6 is not about covenant.
5) Gen 12 you state a covenant is there, then turn around and say it's in Gen 15:6 you can't have it both ways.
6) What God wants to do and coming INTO actual covenant are two different things.
7) Gen 15 clearly shows God coming INTO the land covenant though God discussed what he "wanted" to do. It was not covenant yet.
8) God discusses in Gen 15:3-4 what he "wants" to do and explains to Abraham his "plans". It takes following to be faithful and to bring it to completion. As faith is defined by the context of what is said and the resulting action.
9) Gen 12 Abraham is told to move and he does so. Once stopped because of his action he asks God "how" to possess... God makes covenant by asking him to do and by doing He makes covenant concerning the land which would go unto his seed. Even though it would go unto his seed ,the multiplying the seed and promise was another aspect not yet realized.
10) Abraham had not obtained a covenant toward his seed multiplying...
11) we see the consistent pattern of God asking and Abraham doing and the result is covenant again in Gen 17....

Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless,
Gen 17:2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly."

Notice it is STILL future of what God wanted to do. It is called a progressive covenantry. One leads to another. He speaks of the future covenant yet speaks of being under covenant. How is this covenant again brought about? By him doing just like before.

What is the covenant he is supposed to walk TO obtain "that I may make" in the future?

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised.

Is this the covenant in Gen 22? No! It is the covenant to obtain "that I may make" a covenant. Because God says he wants to do something doesn't mean it's covenant. God judges and will be faithful if you are faithful to his Word. Just like today. We have covenant to receive the promises yet we have not OBTAINED YET the covenant/fulfillment of eternal life. When we are judged faithful, we obtain that covenant of promise.

Abraham OBTAINED by obedience that which by God's grace he offered.... "THAT I MAY MAKE" why would the seed come about and be blessed....

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh. As it is said to this day, In the mount of Jehovah it shall be provided.
Gen 22:15 And the angel of Jehovah called unto Abraham a second time out of heaven,
Gen 22:16 and said, By myself have I sworn, saith Jehovah, because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son,
Gen 22:17 that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore. And thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies.
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Because thou hast obeyed my voice.

This is the covenant "that I may make" God tells Isaac WHY it came about. Was it mental assent of promise which one was justified or the WORKS that justified Abraham by faith response?

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee. For unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father.
Gen 26:4 And I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these lands. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gen 12 he did and was judged to bring about Gen 15

Gen 15:8 And he said, O Lord Jehovah, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.

TO OBTAIN AND INHERIT LAND PROMISE!

which brought about another promise and covenant by which God demanded something before covenant in Gen 17 above which led to Gen 22 which took him responding and was judged just the he obtained covenant.

Gen 18:18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him."

To bring upon and confirm the promise by covenant are two different things.

concerning Paul.... he is talking about a certain aspect how a action of faith is "judged/considered" thus one stands turned to God and his heart be acceptable unto God. Abraham was considered righteous not simply by circumcision but well before circumcision. Was circumcision a righteous response? Yes but it in itself was not righteousing but God's judgment of action is what delcares right or just. Not our works speaking "judgment" outside of God.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

HAHAHAHAHAHA.... my friend this is THEOLOGY and DOCTRINE.... they have no friends. Get away from discussing points that war with each other and the problem is I never take anything serious and hold no grudges and love to have fun to much.... When it comes to doctrine truth cuts and does not waver and it's not a game and it's not to be taken lightly. I hope you understand.

Sure, you bonehead.

Now, why don't you do as Mike has done and come back at this issue from a "grace" point of view?

God's covenant with Abraham didn't begin until after Abraham had already been "accounted righteous." The covenant is important - it's vital! But Abe's standing with God was already established before the first "cut" in the covenant was made.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Sure, you bonehead.

Now, why don't you do as Mike has done and come back at this issue from a "grace" point of view?

God's covenant with Abraham didn't begin until after Abraham had already been "accounted righteous." The covenant is important - it's vital! But Abe's standing with God was already established before the first "cut" in the covenant was made.

it's pointless you don't hear....

Grace is simply God's favor and it is given to the humble(condition) which mean God judged the heart already.

concerning covenant... I agree it is "notofworks" or maybe it "Jeffrey"(so confusing) LOL... that you need to argue with on that. God must consider one "right" before he can even think of entering covenant. I think I have CLEARLY explained that but you ignore it. He did not enter into covenant until Abraham "did" in Gen 12 and Gen 15:8-10 for land covenant.

You also fail to recognize the point of JAMes that mental assent alone does not justify it is the corresponding action/response to the Word and it's context that God does "justice" to. Gen 15:6 is about fulfillment in the eyes of the narrator! Not a moment in time PER JAMES!

Jesus clearly teaches it is not who says yes that is just as words mean nothing. It is who does that is declared/considered righteous. A person could with all intent agree but then not do. God brings about the ability or the aspect possible for belief(Word presented/offered/made known) which then belief or faith is defined within the context. Our response must be judged (which is God's justice) by what is required and can only be judged by our deeds/response. That is the point of Gen 15:6 it is a consideration of Gen 15:8-10 all the way to Gen 22 in view. Thus BEFORE AND AFTER CIRCUMCISION! Which Pauls points focuses on the before but does not exclude the after. James brings up the whole meaning of Gen 15:6! Thus believed is continous view of what "would" be and happen.

Also simple belief in itself does not bring about covenant. Abraham life and his dealings with God clearly shows a simple action to more complex response was required to enter into covenant.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

So am I to understand, from this statement, that you believe works could help us obtain righteousness, but works don't make us righteous?

Once again, a good study on the topic of righteousness in the bible, and how Israel was made to seek it more than anything through law, and how works cannot attain it, is required. I think too many have not done such a study.

Anyway, all that I am saying is that baptism, for example, is not an act that in and of itself makes us righteous. That is all. And try as one might, one cannot find a loophole out of this need for baptism after a statement made like that, since it removes the ONLY problem with any salvation by works activity. Salvation by works is doing activities that, in and of themselves, render us righteous without the work of God's grace involved as the only means of attaining righteousness.

And until everyone can realize that the mental and heart assent of repentance and faith are as much activities as is baptism, albeit baptism is physical and the others are inward, they will not get this point.

Righteousness is our ticket to glory. Law tried to get man to make himself righteous. God knew it would not work, but man needed to know that. And baptism is the same thing as repentance as far as purposes go. Repentance admits self is useless and could never attain righteousness. Baptism is the same. It is a baptism into death and a burial of the old man, since it admits self is so useless, that all that can be done with that old man is to have it die and put away for good. That is as far from salvation by works as is possible.

I kinda think folks do not even realize how baptism is indeed a putting away of the old man in death. We have so much of this foolish "outward show of an inward work" nonsense, which is not even in the bible, that people forget that Romans 6:3-6 teaches baptism is involved in uniting us to the death of Christ so that His death is considered our deaths, since the old man can not attain its own righteousness, and is worthy for nothing other than death!

This act of this "burial" and "death" of the old man is done in order for us to get to the place where God alone is the one getting the glory for granting us the gift of righteousness. I mean, one could get no further away from "salvation by works" than by rendering dead and burying the old man that might ever consider saving himself by his own works.

So the baptism does not make us righteous by any means! It slays the "us" that might ever think it can make itself righteous.

Put it this way. It is as though our hands are full with our own efforts to attain righteousness, and God is trying to place within those hands his righteousness. And until we empty our hands of our hopes and dreams and efforts to make ourselves righteous, God cannot give us righteousness. And we empty our hands BY BAPTISM AND REPENTANCE

I'm still a little stuck on your claim that you were able to speak in tongues (a necessary element of salvation according to you) because you "let go of sin."

It's simple! Again, you agree repentance is a NECESSARY STEP along with the other non-admitted "step" of faith, making no one a one-stepper, so you should understand quite easily that unless one repents one cannot be saved or given righteousness or given any other gift from God! The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a GIFT, as much as righteousness is. And if you can see how repentance is necessary in order to receive any gift from God, then you can understand that not letting go of sin would disallow God from giving me the GIFT of the Holy Ghost.

Don't try to find a flaw in my words, here. lol. Just hear what I am saying, for if you believe repentance is necessary for anything from God then you should know that "letting go of sin" is repentance, and I had not actually repented, which is why I was not being Spirit filled.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Once again, a good study on the topic of righteousness in the bible, and how Israel was made to seek it more than anything through law, and how works cannot attain it, is required. I think too many have not done such a study.

Anyway, all that I am saying is that baptism, for example, is not an act that in and of itself makes us righteous. That is all. And try as one might, one cannot find a loophole out of this need for baptism after a statement made like that, since it removes the ONLY problem with any salvation by works activity. Salvation by works is doing activities that, in and of themselves, render us righteous without the work of God's grace involved as the only means of attaining righteousness.

And until everyone can realize that the mental and heart assent of repentance and faith are as much activities as is baptism, albeit baptism is physical and the others are inward, they will not get this point.

Righteousness is our ticket to glory. Law tried to get man to make himself righteous. God knew it would not work, but man needed to know that. And baptism is the same thing as repentance as far as purposes go. Repentance admits self is useless and could never attain righteousness. Baptism is the same. It is a baptism into death and a burial of the old man, since it admits self is so useless, that all that can be done with that old man is to have it die and put away for good. That is as far from salvation by works as is possible.

I kinda think folks do not even realize how baptism is indeed a putting away of the old man in death. We have so much of this foolish "outward show of an inward work" nonsense, which is not even in the bible, that people forget that Romans 6:3-6 teaches baptism is involved in uniting us to the death of Christ so that His death is considered our deaths, since the old man can not attain its own righteousness, and is worthy for nothing other than death!

This act of this "burial" and "death" of the old man is done in order for us to get to the place where God alone is the one getting the glory for granting us the gift of righteousness. I mean, one could get no further away from "salvation by works" than by rendering dead and burying the old man that might ever consider saving himself by his own works.

So the baptism does not make us righteous by any means! It slays the "us" that might ever think it can make itself righteous.

Put it this way. It is as though our hands are full with our own efforts to attain righteousness, and God is trying to place within those hands his righteousness. And until we empty our hands of our hopes and dreams and efforts to make ourselves righteous, God cannot give us righteousness. And we empty our hands BY BAPTISM AND REPENTANCE



It's simple! Again, you agree repentance is a NECESSARY STEP along with the other non-admitted "step" of faith, making no one a one-stepper, so you should understand quite easily that unless one repents one cannot be saved or given righteousness or given any other gift from God! The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a GIFT, as much as righteousness is. And if you can see how repentance is necessary in order to receive any gift from God, then you can understand that not letting go of sin would disallow God from giving me the GIFT of the Holy Ghost.

Don't try to find a flaw in my words, here. lol. Just hear what I am saying, for if you believe repentance is necessary for anything from God then you should know that "letting go of sin" is repentance, and I had not actually repented, which is why I was not being Spirit filled.

excellent... ehhh but they will still stick with a paradigm that is false and makes the rest of the Bible useless because of them misusing and abusing scripture. They don't see there own contradiction as you pointed out.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Wait, what? God is directing it all? What do you mean by that, exactly? And is He doing a good job, so far?

Let me share a little account of what happened with me just in the past month to explain my point. (I am dying to share this and will take this opportunity to do so, and apologize for getting off topic for a bit).

PRAISE BREAK , EVERYONE!

A situation that occurred a handful of years ago, before I ever came here last October to minister, in our local church involving a married brother and sister. That situation required things to be made right with another couple who have long since lost contact with the local couple. This has been years that this loss of contact occurred. People moved, phone numbers changed, etc., etc.

In the meantime, we move here last October. In fact the former pastor here told me about this other couple whom he would like to contact and get things right, since the last time they had contact viewpoints were quite different, but light was realized later and the pastor wanted to see things smoothed out and made right.

My son had moved up with us from the USA back home to Canada. He stayed in the nearby city while we entered pastorate in this smaller town. My son stayed with my older son and his family til he could find work. Could not find work for months, and time came for my younger son to obtain his own dwelling and move out. Did not have a place to move into. So, I called the pastor where both my sons attend church in the city.

"Have a place for my son to rent or board, on short notice -- two days?" lol

"Will contact the congregation by email and see who might have a place."

Two days went by and no place, so we pick him up and bring him here home with us for the weekend. He has to go back to work in three more days, but the day after we pick him up they find a place for him to stay in the city. We take him to the city to meet the people and have him ready for work as well. THE PEOPLE ARE THE COUPLE WHO LOST CONTACT WITH OUR LOCAL COUPLE, and I am thrown in the midst of it all and hear the whole story.

Turned out that an open door of reconciliation and forgiveness were always there during the last several years between the contact the two couples had with each other. Out of 700,000 people, I land in the couple's home on a spur-of-the-moment email response for my son to get a place to rent. This couple in the city had only started going to my son's church a year ago.

Everyone is feeling joy and praising God and GOD IS DIRECTING THE WHOLE THING AND DOING A GOOD JOB OF IT! Sorta reminds me of the incident I told you about where a man bought one of 22 books of mine that I sold over the net, and I meet him two airports away from Canada down in Phoenix sitting on the seat beside mine in the plane!

I can only speak from experience, that God directs these sorts of things, including the example I gave to you, and does an awesome job of it!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Let me share a little account of what happened with me just in the past month to explain my point. (I am dying to share this and will take this opportunity to do so, and apologize for getting off topic for a bit).

PRAISE BREAK , EVERYONE!

A situation that occurred a handful of years ago, before I ever came here last October to minister, in our local church involving a married brother and sister. That situation required things to be made right with another couple who have long since lost contact with the local couple. This has been years that this loss of contact occurred. People moved, phone numbers changed, etc., etc.

In the meantime, we move here last October. In fact the former pastor here told me about this other couple whom he would like to contact and get things right, since the last time they had contact viewpoints were quite different, but light was realized later and the pastor wanted to see things smoothed out and made right.

My son had moved up with us from the USA back home to Canada. He stayed in the nearby city while we entered pastorate in this smaller town. My son stayed with my older son and his family til he could find work. Could not find work for months, and time came for my younger son to obtain his own dwelling and move out. Did not have a place to move into. So, I called the pastor where both my sons attend church in the city.

"Have a place for my son to rent or board, on short notice -- two days?" lol

"Will contact the congregation by email and see who might have a place."

Two days went by and no place, so we pick him up and bring him here home with us for the weekend. He has to go back to work in three more days, but the day after we pick him up they find a place for him to stay in the city. We take him to the city to meet the people and have him ready for work as well. THE PEOPLE ARE THE COUPLE WHO LOST CONTACT WITH OUR LOCAL COUPLE, and I am thrown in the midst of it all and hear the whole story.

Turned out that an open door of reconciliation and forgiveness were always there during the last several years between the contact the two couples had with each other. Out of 700,000 people, I land in the couple's home on a spur-of-the-moment email response for my son to get a place to rent. This couple in the city had only started going to my son's church a year ago.

Everyone is feeling joy and praising God and GOD IS DIRECTING THE WHOLE THING AND DOING A GOOD JOB OF IT! Sorta reminds me of the incident I told you about where a man bought one of 22 books of mine that I sold over the net, and I meet him two airports away from Canada down in Phoenix sitting on the seat beside mine in the plane!

I can only speak from experience, that God directs these sorts of things, including the example I gave to you, and does an awesome job of it!

I'm despise and am repulsed by manipulated and contrived "Praise Breaks", so I won't be joining in.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I'm despise and am repulsed by manipulated and contrived "Praise Breaks", so I won't be joining in.

ROFL!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Once again, a good study on the topic of righteousness in the bible, and how Israel was made to seek it more than anything through law, and how works cannot attain it, is required. I think too many have not done such a study.

Anyway, all that I am saying is that baptism, for example, is not an act that in and of itself makes us righteous. That is all. And try as one might, one cannot find a loophole out of this need for baptism after a statement made like that, since it removes the ONLY problem with any salvation by works activity. Salvation by works is doing activities that, in and of themselves, render us righteous without the work of God's grace involved as the only means of attaining righteousness.

And until everyone can realize that the mental and heart assent of repentance and faith are as much activities as is baptism, albeit baptism is physical and the others are inward, they will not get this point.

Righteousness is our ticket to glory. Law tried to get man to make himself righteous. God knew it would not work, but man needed to know that. And baptism is the same thing as repentance as far as purposes go. Repentance admits self is useless and could never attain righteousness. Baptism is the same. It is a baptism into death and a burial of the old man, since it admits self is so useless, that all that can be done with that old man is to have it die and put away for good. That is as far from salvation by works as is possible.

I kinda think folks do not even realize how baptism is indeed a putting away of the old man in death. We have so much of this foolish "outward show of an inward work" nonsense, which is not even in the bible, that people forget that Romans 6:3-6 teaches baptism is involved in uniting us to the death of Christ so that His death is considered our deaths, since the old man can not attain its own righteousness, and is worthy for nothing other than death!

This act of this "burial" and "death" of the old man is done in order for us to get to the place where God alone is the one getting the glory for granting us the gift of righteousness. I mean, one could get no further away from "salvation by works" than by rendering dead and burying the old man that might ever consider saving himself by his own works.

So the baptism does not make us righteous by any means! It slays the "us" that might ever think it can make itself righteous.

Put it this way. It is as though our hands are full with our own efforts to attain righteousness, and God is trying to place within those hands his righteousness. And until we empty our hands of our hopes and dreams and efforts to make ourselves righteous, God cannot give us righteousness. And we empty our hands BY BAPTISM AND REPENTANCE



It's simple! Again, you agree repentance is a NECESSARY STEP along with the other non-admitted "step" of faith, making no one a one-stepper, so you should understand quite easily that unless one repents one cannot be saved or given righteousness or given any other gift from God! The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a GIFT, as much as righteousness is. And if you can see how repentance is necessary in order to receive any gift from God, then you can understand that not letting go of sin would disallow God from giving me the GIFT of the Holy Ghost.

Don't try to find a flaw in my words, here. lol. Just hear what I am saying, for if you believe repentance is necessary for anything from God then you should know that "letting go of sin" is repentance, and I had not actually repented, which is why I was not being Spirit filled.

Good grief, are you this long-winded when you preach?? I don't drink coffee, but you're making me want to!

Yes, I believe in repentance but in the true sense of the word, which is "To Turn" which is exactly what someone does when they "believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised them from the dead." So of course, I believe in repentance. I don't care for the term "Step", but if you wanna call it that, fine.

I just cannot process your theology that the Holy Spirit is a "gift", yet at the same time, a "requirement". And I also really, really struggle with your theology that one can improve oneself and thereby, receive this "gift." My kids have never "earned" any of their "gifts." To me, that's edging into serious and dangerous heresy. You went to great lengths (almost beyond my attention span) to justify your stance, but at the end of the day, you're believing that you can improve yourself and better position yourself to receive salvation. This is a LOUD violation of "Not of Works" (hey, that'd make a good ID), lest any man should boast." I can't boast in this. I've done NOTHING to better position myself.

And you still haven't explained how some just receive this "gift" (tongues) the first time they walk into a church and some have to work on some things. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Do you have any other explanation for those that "tarry" for months/years for the Holy Spirit than, "They need to get rid of sin in their life"? And if that's the only explanation for the "tarrying", what is your prooftext for that belief? Who in the bible ever "tarried for the Holy Ghost", what is the scriptural principle for someone "tarrying for the Holy Ghost"?