The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I just glanced through and copied and pasted these statements you made:




You are not even reading my words. lol.

Anyway, you are clearly not reading my words

You are not hearing this single most important part I have said again and again.

Did you get it this time?

Lol. brother. I hope this is not A.D.D. hindering you here.

Can you get it this time? lol.


I think the problem is, I AM reading what you write and that's what bothers me so much!

But Mike, tearing me down doesn't really do much to build up your position. The first time we talked you accused me of having a "Passive-Aggressive" personality disorder, so I suppose I'll take your verbal shots for what they're worth.

And, when there's more time to parse all those separated quotes, I'll answer.

Brother, I am grasping for words to get you to NOTE THE ALL IMPORTANT POINT I am making, that I honestly feel you are not getting, due to the way you are answering me. I intend no put-down. However, you are claiming I preach salvation by works, and do not even respond to my clarifications on what "salvation by works" actually is. And you continue to repeat that accusation. What else can a person do than ya you are not reading what I am saying?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Even you say some good things amongst other errors.

That is beside the point, though.

The point is Romans 6 is talking about WATER BAPTISM.

Notofworks, until you acknowledge a particular point I am repeating a dozen times, you will not get what we are saying.




Please respond to this point, if none others: Salvation by works IS ONLY PROPOSED when someone claims ANY GIVEN WORK makes us righteous in and of itself. Do you agree?

...and until you respond to the fact that you said you couldn't receive the Holy Ghost (ultimately, salvation), until you "let go of sin", that you did so, and as a result, received the "Holy Ghost" (ultimately, salvation), then I suppose you won't really get what I'm saying, either.

As for your final question....No, I do NOT agree. It's a SMALL meaning of a small phrase that you're attempting to make, but ultimately, it adds up to the same thing. Do works MAKE one righteous? No, of course not. But you claimed that works led you to righteousness.

For me, it's the same thing.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I just glanced through and copied and pasted these statements you made:




You are not even reading my words. lol.

Anyway, you are clearly not reading my words

You are not hearing this single most important part I have said again and again.

Did you get it this time?

Lol. brother. I hope this is not A.D.D. hindering you here.

Can you get it this time? lol.


I think the problem is, I AM reading what you write and that's what bothers me so much!

But Mike, tearing me down doesn't really do much to build up your position. The first time we talked you accused me of having a "Passive-Aggressive" personality disorder, so I suppose I'll take your verbal shots for what they're worth.

And, when there's more time to parse all those separated quotes, I'll answer.

well... sorry but you do not read what we say and you ignore the paradigm you create saying one thing then cutting your theological throat with the end result. It's been the same issue for a very long time when dealing with this subject. It's not just you but a theological community... Works(context) to you are forensic conerning salvation and not intrinsic. Jesus clearly teaches "to enter" life we are going to be judged of having done his will. PERIOD END OF STORY thus FAITH IN CONTEXT is the WHOLE not a isolate point in time. As I said earlier and showed even a Calvinist like James White even has to admit what "believe/faith" etc... mean. It not about a point but continous thus the "whole" is in view of what salvation is. We are saved from our sins by ABIDING not by one single moment in time and HAVE OBTAINED. "Eternal Salvation" is a future sense when judged a good and faithful servant while being saved from our sins is a present reality based on CONTINUALLY ABIDING(FAITH).

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Brother, I am grasping for words to get you to NOTE THE ALL IMPORTANT POINT I am making, that I honestly feel you are not getting, due to the way you are answering me. I intend no put-down. However, you are claiming I preach salvation by works, and do not even respond to my clarifications on what "salvation by works" actually is. And you continue to repeat that accusation. What else can a person do than ya you are not reading what I am saying?

You don't intend the "put-downs" but you're sure as heck using them! I didn't like it at all when you called me "passive-aggressive" way back when and I thought it was uncalled for and unfair. Why insert that malarkey into a bible discussion??

Interestingly, I think it's similar now...you don't INTEND to say "Salvation by works" but that's what is there underneath what you're saying...in my opinion.

Tell me this...is there ANYONE in Christianity that preaches "Salvation by works?" Anyone? I would bet you think there is. So the next question would be....do THEY SAY they're preaching salvation by works? I've never heard anyone, in orthodox Christianity claim to preach "Salvation by works", as in, "Our works save us."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

...and until you respond to the fact that you said you couldn't receive the Holy Ghost (ultimately, salvation), until you "let go of sin", that you did so, and as a result, received the "Holy Ghost" (ultimately, salvation), then I suppose you won't really get what I'm saying, either.

I did respond. I said I HAD NOT REALLY REPENTED, and that is why I could not get the Holy Ghost.

As for your final question....No, I do NOT agree.

Then you do not understand what salvation by works really was when Paul condemned it. My opinion.

It's a SMALL meaning of a small phrase that you're attempting to make, but ultimately, it adds up to the same thing. Do works MAKE one righteous? No, of course not. But you claimed that works led you to righteousness.

For me, it's the same thing.

Then you preach salvation by works when you demand repentance. The way it has to be, bro. If not, why not?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

You don't intend the "put-downs" but you're sure as heck using them! I didn't like it at all when you called me "passive-aggressive" way back when and I thought it was uncalled for and unfair. Why insert that malarkey into a bible discussion??

Interestingly, I think it's similar now...you don't INTEND to say "Salvation by works" but that's what is there underneath what you're saying...in my opinion.

Tell me this...is there ANYONE in Christianity that preaches "Salvation by works?" Anyone? I would bet you think there is. So the next question would be....do THEY SAY they're preaching salvation by works? I've never heard anyone, in orthodox Christianity claim to preach "Salvation by works", as in, "Our works save us."

Yes there are. ROMAN CATHOLICS blatantly told me they are saved by works. You should read what they say about James 2.

the issue is far more complicated than you believe it, bro. It's far more than "you do something and you're saved," for you yourself believe you must repent to be saved. What is the difference? You refuse to say.

And man alive, I mentioned "passive aggression" ONCE, and you think of it everytime you read a post of mine. Ironically, obsessing over that is actually passive aggression

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

...and until you respond to the fact that you said you couldn't receive the Holy Ghost (ultimately, salvation), until you "let go of sin", that you did so, and as a result, received the "Holy Ghost" (ultimately, salvation), then I suppose you won't really get what I'm saying, either.

As for your final question....No, I do NOT agree. It's a SMALL meaning of a small phrase that you're attempting to make, but ultimately, it adds up to the same thing. Do works MAKE one righteous? No, of course not. But you claimed that works led you to righteousness.

For me, it's the same thing.

In what sense do you mean "make one righteous"

1) do works have authority in themselves or have righteousing power outside of God's justice/judgment/consideration? NO!
2) do works bring about God's justicing power to declare one just or not? Yes they do! James says so. God either declares us faithful or not TO HIS WORD.

there is no judgment of righteousness outside of God's judgment. Thus to obtain eternal salvation God always is judging our response. Thus whether we are "abiding" in him.

Now conerning "righteousness" in the sense of sin and payment it is all seen through the offering of Christ for the Penalty of sin. How is our "justice" served for sin? Only by the power of his offering to make payment that was due. That is "grace" the "offering" of Christ or God's "favour"! We are saved by "grace" (source of salvation for justice done on our behalf) through "faith" (to them that obey) Heb 5:9. cf Ephesian 2:8

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Do works MAKE one righteous? No, of course not. But you claimed that works led you to righteousness.

Why can you not see that your belief of how repentance saves is the same thing as saying something we do leads us to righteousness? You're avoiding that like a hot potato.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes there are. ROMAN CATHOLICS blatantly told me they are saved by works. You should read what they say about James 2.

the issue is far more complicated than you believe it, bro. It's far more than "you do something and you're saved," for you yourself believe you must repent to be saved. What is the difference? You refuse to say.

And man alive, I mentioned "passive aggression" ONCE, and you think of it everytime you read a post of mine.

Speaking of not reading what one is saying.......I said, "In Orthodox Christianity". You're a smart guy and I think you're aware that Catholicism is NOT Orthodox Christianity.

So again, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity that teaches "Salvation by works" in your opinion? Second, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity who, themselves, claim to teach "Salvation by works"?

No, I only think of the "Passive-Aggressive" thing when you start putting me down again. When you do it, I just try to remember that it's part of your pattern and try to not to take it too seriously.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Speaking of not reading what one is saying.......I said, "In Orthodox Christianity". You're a smart guy and I think you're aware that Catholicism is NOT Orthodox Christianity.

So again, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity that teaches "Salvation by works" in your opinion? Second, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity who, themselves, claim to teach "Salvation by works"?

No, I only think of the "Passive-Aggressive" thing when you start putting me down again. When you do it, I just try to remember that it's part of your pattern and try to not to take it too seriously.

WOW... hmmm I would say "easter orthodox" would disagree with your view of works and they have been around much longer than your reformed brethren...