The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by notofworks

To bottom line it, there are a bunch of really smart theologians that see repentance as a "Work" and a bunch of really smart theologians that scoff at the notion of repentance being a "Work."

So you're gonna have your view and I'm gonna have mine (the correct view that God agrees with, of course!). But when repentance is purely defined and we see it as it really is, I am baffled how it could be a "Work".

Repentance takes place the moment we allow God to walk through the door of our heart and occupy the position of "First place." It is the realization that God is the one who should control us, that His will is greater than ours, that His way is better than ours, and that His sacrifice was the ONLY work that could ever be beneficial for the betterment of our souls.

A "Work" is an effort on our parts that would help us obtain salvation. I'm sorry, Mike, I know you don't like it when I raise this issue, but it still is what it is. In your description of how you "received the Holy Ghost" I cannot see it as anything but a "Work" in order to receive a "gift." You set aside sin so that you could receive a necessary element of salvation (necessary in your view, anyway). In that description you gave us, you told us something that you did. That, in my view, constitutes a, "Work."

But salvation is a complete gift, It is our as soon as we grant Christ permission to be "Lord."

Romans 4:2 Was it because of his good deeds that God accepted him? If so, he would have had something to boast about. But from God's point of view Abraham had no basis at all for pride.


Romans 4:3 For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be righteous."


Romans 4:4 When people work, their wages are not a gift. Workers earn what they receive.


Romans 4:5 But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work.




Is belief a "Work"? Here in Romans, belief is directly separated from a "Work", and repentance is belief in Christ as Lord.

4:4...."When people work".....

Verse 5, "But people are declared righteous BECAUSE of the faith, NOT because of their work.


Belief clearly isn't a "work" in this context! It's ALL HIM!!! All of the grace that has covered my life is completely on HIS behalf!!! It's ALL HIM!!!

[Jeffrey]

Romans 10

4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Romans 10

4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

So clearly, Jeffrey, "Belief" in this context is NOT a work, correct?



I particularly love the above passage from the NLT:



Rom 10:4 For Christ has accomplished the whole purpose of the law. All who believe in him are made right with God.


Rom 10:5 For Moses wrote that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands.


Rom 10:6 But the way of getting right with God through faith says, "You don't need to go to heaven" (to find Christ and bring him down to help you).


Rom 10:7 And it says, "You don't need to go to the place of the dead" (to bring Christ back to life again).


Rom 10:8 Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."


Rom 10:9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Rom 10:10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.


Rom 10:11 As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed. "


Rom 10:12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They all have the same Lord, who generously gives his riches to all who ask for them.


Rom 10:13 For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

[Jeffrey]

Mike/TL,
what are your views of human depravity?

[mfblume]

Repentance is belief????

Repentance is a work, guys. Anything we do, that God does not do for us, is a work on our behalf.

Also, the bible clearly specifies the issue of what makes us righteous when it speaks of salvation by works. Nothing else. It matters not whether repentance is tied to faith or not, since repentance is a conscious act that God cannot do for us automatically. Sorry, bros, that is the issue when it comes to works in the bible.

Repentance IS NOT BELIEF, but is done BECAUSE OF BELIEF. It is a choice to ask God to forgive us and is a conscious decision to remove ourselves from the sinful activity we were headed in.

Also, Jesus said BELIEF is a work. Can't deny the bible.

Joh 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Repentance is belief????

Repentance is the turn, the acknowledgement that Christ is Lord, the placing of our faith in Christ, belief.


"But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work." Romans 4:5

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Repentance is belief????

Repentance is a work, guys. Anything we do, that God does not do for us, is a work on our behalf.

Also, the bible clearly specifies the issue of what makes us righteous when it speaks of salvation by works. Nothing else. It matters not whether repentance is tied to faith or not, since repentance is a conscious act that God cannot do for us automatically. Sorry, bros, that is the issue when it comes to works in the bible.

Repentance IS NOT BELIEF, but is done BECAUSE OF BELIEF. It is a choice to ask God to forgive us and is a conscious decision to remove ourselves from the sinful activity we were headed in.

Also, Jesus said BELIEF is a work. Can't deny the bible.

Joh 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Who said it was the same as belief?

Repentance is what happens after faith, and I think one could argue, simultaneous with faith. In fact, it is inseparable, indivisible even. It's hard to tear it apart into components. It's a wild and crazy New Birth.

I'm not sure we can even obey God's commands to repent except by His grace.

But we must see repentance as primarily a heart turned towards God before we see it as a confession on our knees in tears that we promise not to be bad people anymore. As a matter of fact, the latter definition is the most skewed of repentance and has caused much damage.

"Repent" - "turn your heart toward God" - "trust in Him!"

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Repentance is the turn, the acknowledgement that Christ is Lord, the placing of our faith in Christ, belief.


"But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work." Romans 4:5

Repentance is not belief. It is something we do once we have belief. We believe Jesus is correct when He said He is the way, the truth and the life, and that the work of the cross (eating his flesh and drinking his blood) grants eternal life. And he said except we repent we will perish. So, we CHOOSE TO REPENT BECAUSE WE ALREADY BELIEVED THE GOSPEL FIRST. Repentance is NOT belief.

And the WORK of Romans 4:5 is a work that is done in and of itself to make us righteous. That is the all important stipulation and distinction.

Show me one dictionary definition that says repentance is belief. One cannot provide one!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Repentance is not belief. It is something we do once we have belief. We believe Jesus is correct when He said He is the way, the truth and the life, and that the work of the cross (eating his flesh and drinking his blood) grants eternal life. And he said except we repent we will perish. So, we CHOOSE TO REPENT BECAUSE WE ALREADY BELIEVED THE GOSPEL FIRST. Repentance is NOT belief.

And the WORK of Romans 4:5 is a work that is done in and of itself to make us righteous. That is the all important stipulation and distinction.

Show me one dictionary definition that says repentance is belief. One cannot provide one!

I agree with the bolded. But since we are debating the semantics of such, we are trying to define how one repents. I argue that it's almost inseparable from belief. It's an osmosis of faith.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Who said it was the same as belief?

Notofworks said it.

Here:

Originally Posted by notofworks

Is belief a "Work"? Here in Romans, belief is directly separated from a "Work", and repentance is belief in Christ as Lord.

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Repentance is what happens after faith, and I think one could argue, simultaneous with faith. In fact, it is inseparable, indivisible even. It's hard to tear it apart into components. It's a wild and crazy New Birth.

It is not inseparable, because one can c;actually believe in Christ's salvation and refuse to repent. This occurred with me before I got saved for a period.

I'm not sure we can even obey God's commands to repent except by His grace.

But we must see repentance as primarily a heart turned towards God before we see it as a confession on our knees in tears that we promise not to be bad people anymore. As a matter of fact, the latter definition is the most skewed of repentance and has caused much damage.

"Repent" - "turn your heart toward God" - "trust in Him!"

No, repent means to TURN FROM SIN also. Consciously DO THE CORRECT WORK, but repentance is not a work that makes us righteous in and of itself. Sorry guys, I am going to repeat "repentance is not a work that makes us righteous in and of itself," so long as this issue is something I choose to remain interested in discussing. lol