The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Adino

Then you agree those with "genuine faith" who are baptized are saved whether they've spoken in tongues or not, corrrect?

Also....

"With the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:10).

Does confession save?

Salvation is "a deliverance from". And Spirit baptism involves a "receiving of" moreso than "deliverance from". But the picture is just that it is God's will for us all to experience Spirit baptism -- all of us. So without splitting hairs I simply preach for everyone to experience Acts 2:38. And the promise of the Spirit baptism is for everyone whom the Lord shall call, v. 39. Why subdivide it and analyze it beyond that?

Flesh is flesh and people tend to want to get away with the least amount of spirituality they can and hope to be "saved". I refuse to give into that spirit, not saying you are of that spirit, lol. So I always emphasize GO ALL THE WAY! Never settle for less than everything God has for us.

As far as readiness for glory, I think that if a person is on their journey towards all of Acts 2:38, fully intent on experiencing it all and moving towards it, they are on their way to glory. Someone once referred to it as a sort of life before birth situation. In the Law a woman with child who was wounded and saw the child's life lost was also able to see eye for eye, tooth for tooth and life for life. The unborn child's life was just as much a life as the adult man who caused its death, therefore, the adult's life was taken. I can see how this applies to the spiritual "fetus" that is as much of a life before actual NEW BIRTH as a matured born again believer.

Now THAT should open a can of worms for some! lol

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Salvation is "a deliverance from". And Spirit baptism involves a "receiving of" moreso than "deliverance from". But the picture is just that it is God's will for us all to experience Spirit baptism -- all of us. So without splitting hairs I simply preach for everyone to experience Acts 2:38. And the promise of the Spirit baptism is for everyone whom the Lord shall call, v. 39. Why subdivide it and analyze it beyond that?

I agree salvation is "a deliverance from" something. You say Spirit baptism involves a "receiving of" moreso than a "deliverance from." Without getting into the 'Spirit baptism' vs 'Spirit infilling' vs 'Spirit birth' issue, I must strongly point out that it is in 'receiving the Spirit [of life]' that we are delivered from spiritual death. The man who has received the Spirit has received life. Having been reconciled by Christ's death we are saved by his life (Romans 5:10). The receiving of Christ's life is salvation from our condition of spiritual death.

We agree that baptism 'saves' (though we differ on what that means)....

I ask again in light of Romans 10:10

"With the mouth confession is made unto salvation"

Does confession engendered by "genuine faith" save?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Adino

I agree salvation is "a deliverance from" something. You say Spirit baptism involves a "receiving of" moreso than a "deliverance from." Without getting into the 'Spirit baptism' vs 'Spirit infilling' vs 'Spirit birth' issue, I must strongly point out that it is in 'receiving the Spirit [of life]' that we are delivered from spiritual death. The man who has received the Spirit has received life. Having been reconciled by Christ's death we are saved by his life (Romans 5:10). The receiving of Christ's life is salvation from our condition of spiritual death.

We agree that baptism 'saves' (though we differ on what that means)....

Good points! I would alter my thoughts then to say Spirit baptism delivers us from a state of death. I also believe I can prove filling, pouring out and baptism are all one and the same. But anyway...

I ask again in light of Romans 10:10

"With the mouth confession is made unto salvation"

Does confession engendered by "genuine faith" save?

Romans 10 must be understood in light of its context. It is citing Deuteronomy 30 that Jews might stand upon in hopes of emphasizing they need not Christ. Paul showed that true fulfillment of the promise in Deut 30 of being regathered to the "land" when obedience to a command is given is faith in Christ and confession of it. The mouth and heart aspects are found in Deut 30:14. And Paul said it is the word of faith Paul preached. So, really, we have to go into all the word of faith Paul preached to get the full picture, because the full picture is not in Deut 30. Paul generalized the issue to have the jews and gentiles in the church realize that Jesus Christ is still the answer even when it comes to the promise of Deut 30!

It is like someone said, it is not systematic theology. It is a reference to Deut 30 in light of Jews and their relationship with God since Christ came. So I would never use Romans 10 as a finalized description of how to be saved as I would Acts 2:38.

[mfblume]

Notofworks, I guess I will not get a reply about the need to realize righteousness is not a simple issue from you.

I guess my post was too long for your attention span, as per your words, no insult intended.

Well, anyway, how is baptism a work like walking an old lady across the street to get to heave by works, anyway.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Good points! I would alter my thoughts then to say Spirit baptism delivers us from a state of death. I also believe I can prove filling, pouring out and baptism are all one and the same. But anyway...



Romans 10 must be understood in light of its context. It is citing Deuteronomy 30 that Jews might stand upon in hopes of emphasizing they need not Christ. Paul showed that true fulfillment of the promise in Deut 30 of being regathered to the "land" when obedience to a command is given is faith in Christ and confession of it. The mouth and heart aspects are found in Deut 30:14. And Paul said it is the word of faith Paul preached. So, really, we have to go into all the word of faith Paul preached to get the full picture, because the full picture is not in Deut 30. Paul generalized the issue to have the jews and gentiles in the church realize that Jesus Christ is still the answer even when it comes to the promise of Deut 30!

It is like someone said, it is not systematic theology. It is a reference to Deut 30 in light of Jews and their relationship with God since Christ came. So I would never use Romans 10 as a finalized description of how to be saved as I would Acts 2:38.

The reference in Romans 10:11 -13

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

to how we, Jew and Gentile are saved is more directly a reference to God's Word through the prophet Joel in Chapter 2, and his call for His people, saved by His name to repent and return to Him BY CALLING UPON HIM FOR OUR SALVATION

Verse 13

Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.

And God's promise to pour out his Spirit, or breathe of life, to all who believe or "call on His name"

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Why 3 stepper OP's refuse to ignore that the Sermon of Pentecost is based on this foundational message of repentance, or turning to God, to be saved is mind boggling as Peter begins his message appealing to Joel 2, in response to the direct question, "What meaneth this?"

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter and Paul, apostles, reiterate and echo this promise in Romans 10 and Acts 2.

More importantly, why we do not focus on the prophetic manifestation that Joel writes about .... that His sons and daughters would prophesy .... is now replaced with glossalia, which some separate from the "gift of prophesy" to establish a doctrine of a single, universal sign of Spirit quickening and baptism.

The promise of eternal life coupled with wonders (plural) in which His people would experience is expressed in magnifying or prophesying the wonders of God ... why this has been reduced only to tongues is puzzling.

In Acts 2, we are witnessing the fulfillment of salvation to those who call upon the name of the Lord and a manifestation of prophesying or magnifying the works of the Lord through Christ ... who made a way back to God.

What they saw and heard was a manifestation of the Spirit ... the charismata were given for the purpose of expressing the wonders of God ...

We find those in the house of Cornelius speaking in tongues and magnifying God

We find John's disciples speaking in tongues and PROPHESYING.

The way to God is to return to Him, turning to Him in repentance.

This was the bulk of Christ's message ....

Matthew 4:17

From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

It is what prompted Peter in a subsequent message to say what will wipe away our sins ... in Acts 3:19

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

It is calling on the name of the Lord which Ananias says will wash Paul's sin in Acts 22.

The issue is calling on the name of the Lord ..... Systematic enough?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by DAII

The reference in Romans 10:12 -13 to how we, Jew and Gentile are saved is more directly a reference to God's Word through the prophet Joel in Chapter 2, and his call for His people, saved by His name to repent and return to Him.

I disagree, bro.

Rom 10:5-10 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (6) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) (7) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) (8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; (9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Deu 30:1-3 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Deu 30:11-14 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. (12) It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? (13) Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? (14) But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Paul introduced Deut 30 as the source of the mouth and heart issue, the issue in hand in this chat.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I disagree, bro.

Rom 10:5-10 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (6) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) (7) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) (8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; (9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Deu 30:1-3 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Deu 30:11-14 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. (12) It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? (13) Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? (14) But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

You are prooftexting rather than examining what God says about the relationsip between calling on the name of the Lord means throughout scripture with the many witnesses ... including Apostolic ones ...

Calling on His name ... has a specific significance in the OT and NT .... and you choose to ignore this powerful phrase which means to have a total reliance on the testator.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by DAII

You are prooftexting rather than examining what God says about the relationsip between calling on the name of the Lord means throughout scripture with the many witnesses ... including Apostolic ones ...

Calling on His name ... has a specific significance in the OT and NT .... and you choose to ignore this powerful phrase which means to have a total reliance on the testator.

It is not prooftexting when I cite the very place Paul quoted his passage in regards to bringing up the issue of mouth and heart that one steppers claim is a systematic theology of how to be saved. Paul quoted Moses. I agree calling on his name is a great issue in scripture, in Deut 30 and elsewhere. But Paul directly is citing Deut 30, and that is the reason he mentions mouth and heart together here. Prooftexting is taking text out of context. How can I do that with citing Deut 30 when Paul literally quoted Deut 30 and stated it was the reason he told Jews to believe with heart and confess with mouth?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It is not prooftexting when I cite the very place Paul quoted his passage in regards to bringing up the issue of mouth and heart that one steppers claim is a systematic theology of how to be saved. Paul quoted Moses. I agree calling on his name is a great issue in scripture, in Deut 30 and elsewhere. But Paul directly is citing Deut 30, and that is the reason he mentions mouth and heart together here. Prooftexting is taking text out of context. How can I do that with citing Deut 30 when Paul literally quoted Deut 30 and stated it was the reason he told Jews to believe with heart and confess with mouth?

To ignore that Paul says this is a promise to all and not just Jews is wreckless and/or convenient ... not systematic.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If you want to micromanage and ignore the greater context ... shoot for it.

See Joel 2 this is referenced as well by Paul ... then harmonize ... that is what Peter and Paul did.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by DAII

To ignore that Paul says this is a promise to all and not just Jews is wreckless and/or convenient ... not systematic.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If you want to micromanage and ignore the greater context ... shoot for it.

See Joel 2 this is referenced as well by Paul ... then harmonize

I agree Joel 2 is referenced. And I am not saying this is not a promise to all. But I am saying Paul is speaking generally and not detailingly, using the basic concept that Deut 30 presented, since all Jews knew Deut 30 and held it dear to their hearts, having it come from Moses. But we are not going to find details of salvation from either Deut 30 or Joel 2. Otherwise Paul did not need to say anything. The details are in instances like Acts 2:38.